TWU negotiations.........what?

[Frank Szabo]

BUCK is against signing for work done by airline support mechanics. So is the FAA

I wasn't aware there would be a class of mechanic created by the lovely TA that couldn't sign for their own work - I thought that was a numero uno FAA requirement to do so. Is that what's being said here?

Tooling is mostly non-certificated and we sign off all manner of stuff other than inspection blocks. Is that issue so different?

 

[Buck]

I wasn't aware there would be a class of mechanic created by the lovely TA that couldn't sign for their own work - I thought that was a numero uno FAA requirement to do so. Is that what's being said here?

Tooling is mostly non-certificated and we sign off all manner of stuff other than inspection blocks. Is that issue so different?

I would suggest that you might spend some time in the GPM. It is full of info. I am saying that is against the law for me do sign for any work that I did not accomplish. Now if I have a ASM working for me and he/she performs the work, but do not have the required license, a A&P would be called upon to sign with them. Somewhere the rules are going to cross. The ASM working under thew company's FAR 121 carrier ticket and the FAA requiring a licensed mechanic. Only time will tell.

 

[Frank Szabo]

I would suggest that you might spend some time in the GPM. It is full of info. I am saying that is against the law for me do sign for any work that I did not accomplish. Now if I have a ASM working for me and he/she performs the work, but do not have the required license, a A&P would be called upon to sign with them. Somewhere the rules are going to cross. The ASM working under thew company's FAR 121 carrier ticket and the FAA requiring a licensed mechanic. Only time will tell.

I'm really not trying to argue with you but I'm trying to understand. The ASM stuff doesn't sound right. We may have had the wrong info for years.

How is it that we, in tool & die, not having certificates, can sign for the work we accomplish that your boys can't/don't want to do having no A&P co-signature or Inspector buy-back (other than the "Inspect" block on the job card) but the new classification would require said co-signature?

What we've been told for years, we can sign for whatever work done, but cannot certify the aircraft as ready for flight - only an individual holding the FAA Airman Certs can sign for both airworthiness of the aircraft (Airframe) and engines (Powerplant). The FAA doesn't require a mechanic be licensed - only the individual certifying the aircraft as airworthy.

Simply signing that one accomplished a task per whatever reference can be done by anyone and isn't a release, rather, simple accountability. Why would the ASM title be different?

As I recall, 1 certificated mechanic must be available for every 12 non certificated mechs working, per the FAA.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

I can just imagine the conversation exchange between Little, Videtich, Gless, and Drummond and Weel, Burdette and Ream....

Little, "we will give you whatever you want, as long as we don't lose dues paying members".

Ream, "OK".

Methinks you have gotten far closer to the truth than anyone cares to believe or realize.

 

[787nightmare]

Methinks you have gotten far closer to the truth than anyone cares to believe or realize.

Exactly right. The TWU, in it's quest for ever increasing, uninterupted flow of dues revenue; would grant AA all the 10/hr mechs mgt wants...so long as the headcount doesn't change.
Dues to be at the current rate, of course.

 

[Hopeful]

I'm really not trying to argue with you but I'm trying to understand. The ASM stuff doesn't sound right. We may have had the wrong info for years.

How is it that we, in tool & die, not having certificates, can sign for the work we accomplish that your boys can't/don't want to do having no A&P co-signature or Inspector buy-back (other than the "Inspect" block on the job card) but the new classification would require said co-signature?

What we've been told for years, we can sign for whatever work done, but cannot certify the aircraft as ready for flight - only an individual holding the FAA Airman Certs can sign for both airworthiness of the aircraft (Airframe) and engines (Powerplant). The FAA doesn't require a mechanic be licensed - only the individual certifying the aircraft as airworthy.

Simply signing that one accomplished a task per whatever reference can be done by anyone and isn't a release, rather, simple accountability. Why would the ASM title be different?

As I recall, 1 certificated mechanic must be available for every 12 non certificated mechs working, per the FAA.

Also keep in mind, that when a worker, notice I said WORKER), is working under the auspices of an FBO and is assigned tasks on printed work cards, a license of any sort is not always necessarily required. The A&P license is is always required to sign of a logbook. The same is not true when working in overhaul. Yes the mechanic must sign for his/her own work, but when back checked by a higher authority, a licences is not always required.
Keeping inspectors and crew chiefs around to "back check" the work of the unlicensed is NOT the same as signing for someone else's work.

 

[strikeforce]

Methinks you have gotten far closer to the truth than anyone cares to believe or realize.

Frank,

Let me continue with the exchange..........

Gless, "look, our guys are idiots and they don't know any better....all they care about is the CS Policy. Ha Ha Ha!

Weel, "how about that goofball Owens, how do we get it past him"?

Little, "he's just a witness, we make the rules and we decide what happens around here".

Ream, "you guys aren't serious about the release, are you Jim"?

Little, "heck no! If we have to we'll just kick Owens off the committee". Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!!

 

[MCI transplant]

Exactly right. The TWU, in it's quest for ever increasing, uninterupted flow of dues revenue; would grant AA all the 10/hr mechs mgt wants...so long as the headcount doesn't change.
Dues to be at the current rate, of course.

<_< -------- No it won't!------ It will go up!!! If wages are less, so is the amount of dues that come in!------- Can't have that!------ How willl they pay for those new cars they are all driving around? B)

 

[Deleted member 14439]

I`ve been enjoying a little time off but wanted to throw this back out there for all the twu supporters. Re: July 1 2011 "negotiation" update.
We thought it would be appropriate that we send out a brief update to the membership on where we are at in the mediation process. One of the reasons for the update is there has been information circulated to some of our members in the system urging members to send emails to our International President asking him to take certain actions.

The email request was the opinion of its author it was not from the M&R Negotiating Committee. We must clarify that any requests for International support must come from the Local leaders that make up the TWU M&R Negotiating Committee who are actually doing the bargaining. Any such requests from the committee will have the support of the International.
These guys DO NOT want to hear from us. I`m not at all surprised but to come out with a "update" to basically tell us to shut up is yet another example of unacceptable behaivoir from people WE PAY !!! Now I will make every effort to fill thier inboxes as often as I can.

 

[Buck]

Also keep in mind, that when a worker, notice I said WORKER), is working under the auspices of an FBO and is assigned tasks on printed work cards, a license of any sort is not always necessarily required. The A&P license is is always required to sign of a logbook. The same is not true when working in overhaul. Yes the mechanic must sign for his/her own work, but when back checked by a higher authority, a licenses is not always required.
Keeping inspectors and crew chiefs around to "back check" the work of the unlicensed is NOT the same as signing for someone else's work.

The non-licensed mechanic works under the company's repair station certificate.

§ 121.105 Servicing and maintenance facilities.
Each certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations must show that competent personnel and adequate facilities and equipment (including spare parts, supplies, and materials) are available at such points along the certificate holder's route as are necessary for the proper servicing, maintenance, and preventive maintenance of airplanes and auxiliary equipment.

[Doc. No. 28154, 61 FR 2610, Jan. 26, 1996]


Title 14 CFR / FAR 121

 

[MCI transplant]

Also keep in mind, that when a worker, notice I said WORKER), is working under the auspices of an FBO and is assigned tasks on printed work cards, a license of any sort is not always necessarily required. The A&P license is is always required to sign of a logbook. The same is not true when working in overhaul. Yes the mechanic must sign for his/her own work, but when back checked by a higher authority, a licences is not always required.
Keeping inspectors and crew chiefs around to "back check" the work of the unlicensed is NOT the same as signing for someone else's work.

<_< ------- Hopeful?------ How does a Inspector/Crew Chief "back check" someone's work without taking some sort of liability for that work?------- And how would that Inspector/ Crew Chief document that "back check" if not by signing something off? :unsure:

 

[Hopeful]

The non-licensed mechanic works under the company's repair station certificate.

§ 121.105 Servicing and maintenance facilities.
Each certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations must show that competent personnel and adequate facilities and equipment (including spare parts, supplies, and materials) are available at such points along the certificate holder's route as are necessary for the proper servicing, maintenance, and preventive maintenance of airplanes and auxiliary equipment.

[Doc. No. 28154, 61 FR 2610, Jan. 26, 1996]


Title 14 CFR / FAR 121

Exactly...so a license is NOT always required. The company is ultimately responsible.

 

[Hopeful]

<_< ------- Hopeful?------ How does a Inspector/Crew Chief "back check" someone's work without taking some sort of liability for that work?------- And how would that Inspector/ Crew Chief document that "back check" if not by signing something off? :unsure:

MCI..Where did I say the crew chief/ inspector is NOT taking some liability for it? The back check IS liability...
What I am saying is that the crew chief is not actually DOING the work of the mechanic on non licensed mechanic. But he still signs for the RII.
When a tire gets changed that is a RII item,,,the crew chief watches the tire change to ensure the RII item is done correctly. he doesn't turn a wrench, doesn't get his hands dirty..Just watches.

And if it still is not done correctly, the crew chief is equally responsible as is the mechanic(s) who did the tire change.

 

[MCI transplant]

Exactly...so a license is NOT always required. The company is ultimately responsible.

<_< ------ Hopeful, how long have you been working in this business?----- Reality check here! ------ If something bad happens, God forbid!, AA, or any other Company, will through it's AMT's/ Inspectors/ Crew Chief's to the wolfs in a minute, to deflect liability from themselves!!!------ When was the last time you saw a AA lawyer representing a AMT/Inspector/Crew Chief at a FAA hearing? :blink:

 

[MCI transplant]

MCI..Where did I say the crew chief/ inspector is NOT taking some liability for it? The back check IS liability...
What I am saying is that the crew chief is not actually DOING the work of the mechanic on non licensed mechanic. But he still signs for the RII.
When a tire gets changed that is a RII item,,,the crew chief watches the tire change to ensure the RII item is done correctly. he doesn't turn a wrench, doesn't get his hands dirty..Just watches.

And if it still is not done correctly, the crew chief is equally responsible as is the mechanic(s) who did the tire change.

<_< ------ Hopeful, maybe it's me, but as I see it, in the eyes of the FAA, it don't matter who got their hands dirty! The liability is the same! If something goes wrong, they're both on the hook!!! The difference is that the mechanic doesn't have a license to loose, the AMT does!!!------ But yes, an unlicensed mechanic can do the work, ------- if his work is bought off by a licensed AMT.