TWU negotiations.........what?

[Chuck Schalk]

The part that's being subsidized is the use of non-licensed workers.....i.e. OSM's & SRP's.

Chuck, the last T/A had ASM's....airline support mechanics....the union negotiators agreed to these non-licensed helpers....thank god the membership didn't buy into this additional concession. Don and Co. DID!!!!!
The union keeps providing AA with lower overall wages.....for every retiree going out the door....a lower wage worker is entering. Therefore, when you factor in all of the non-licensed workers against the topped out guys....AA overall labor cost is going down. It has to be, and until someone shows me otherwise I won't believe it. Now, is AA still at a cost disadvantage compared to the BK carriers who outsouce their OH, maybe, but it's pretty close and it's getting closer. But, someone within the company has been able to keep persuading the finance guys....the moneymen....that in-house is more cost effective than outsourcing, otherwise OH would be GONE!!!


Striikeforce:

I agree with your statement but no one in the upper ranks of the TWU or the company will identify exactly where the cost disadvantages in maintenance are and by how much. Note: not all areas of mx are a disadvantage, some areas are an advantage. How can we address these disadvantages if we do not know where are the short falls.
they just like to throw numbers out there without breaking it down.
what part of ther 600 million dollar labor disadvantage is aircraft maintenance and what are the specific areas.
Numbers standing alone means little to anyone unless it is supported

 

[Frank Szabo]

Ok! I meant the rejected T/A.

These were non-licensed workers on the docks....I believe 20% of the dock could have been ASM's.

Well guess who's signing for them?????

Hold on a sec - I'm not a mechanic, rather, I'm in the Tool & Die department of TULE. We are constantly sent out to do jobs the almighty mechanics either can't do or don't want to do. We sign for our own work. Very few of us are certificated. Nobody comes along after the fact and re-signs for the work done.

Would you care to revisit your comments?

I would love to see this nonsense stopped and the mechanics begin doing all their work so we can do ours rather than it being farmed out. The old guys, now retired, had no difficulty dealing with their own work - why is it a problem now for mechs to drill their own holes and such?

 

[Bob Owens]

This debate regarding the costs of OH are beginning to get a little clearer, but I have to ask you Bob.....Every job, whether it's cutting grass, installing a water heater or fixing an airplane, has a cost factor. In negotiations, the TWU is essentially bidding for that work, right? Although we are employees of AA, we are not guaranteed employment. The union is a contractor bidding on work for AA. The TWU has bid $39 an hour for OH work and $41 an hour for Line work. That's it. That's the unions cost of doing business with AA. Now, AA feels it's too much, but won't give the union a number or cost for doing that work. Don't let them fool you....they have a number or cost....and that cost was "the rejected T/A". One way or another AA will not pay more than that rate.

When you fix your roof or siding.....do you get estimates from contractors? Are you going to pay the highest estimate?

I'm sure that AA did their homework and asked other carriers what they're paying to outsource their OH, and Bob you might be right....AA is paying a cheaper rate to do the work in-house. Problem is....as a union we're subsidizing through concessions the cost of doing business with AA in order to save jobs. Therefore, Don's right.

The TWU is a business first and union last, jobs means dues, but as a craft, is this the proper way to go......jobs over higher wages & benefits and maybe less jobs?????? I'm going to pick the latter because even if my number is picked for layoff....at some point down the road I will be recalled to higher wages and benefits. That should have been the case in 2003. Again, I'm just sayin!!!!

Just another way of looking at things.

There are many factors to consider when hiring a contractor, not just price. Sure you can just go with the lowest pay if quality and reliability is not a factor. The cheapest bid does not always result in the cheapest cost at the end of the day. When we bid to do work for AA we are essentially selling our labor, not running the job, so we compare ourselves to what others are selling their labor for the same job.

As a union we are supposed to elevate the status of work and workers, not reduce it to the level of pork bellies and agree to give a discount for quantity. You had it right as far as maintaining the quality of the job and through attrition if need be have a good job to come back to and not join the race to the bottom.

So you think if AA asked other companies what they pay those competitors will simply open their books to AA? Businesses are usually very guarded about the deals they work out. Would you tell your competitor what your bid is?

 

[Buck]

Hold on a sec - I'm not a mechanic, rather, I'm in the Tool & Die department of TULE. We are constantly sent out to do jobs the almighty mechanics either can't do or don't want to do. We sign for our own work. Very few of us are certificated. Nobody comes along after the fact and re-signs for the work done.

Would you care to revisit your comments?

I would love to see this nonsense stopped and the mechanics begin doing all their work so we can do ours rather than it being farmed out. The old guys, now retired, had no difficulty dealing with their own work - why is it a problem now for mechs to drill their own holes and such?

OH (management), looks for skills. You provide a skill and are adept at it, and most receive a skill premium equal to that of a mechanic on the floor, right?( A&P = $2.50 x 2, Machinist 1 Certificate = $5.00)

 

[Frank Szabo]

OH (management), looks for skills. You provide a skill and are adept at it, and most receive a skill premium equal to that of a mechanic on the floor, right?( A&P = $2.50 x 2, Machinist 1 Certificate = $5.00)

What certificate? I've got no certification or licenses (except drivers & amateur radio). They do provide a skill premium (not sure what that amounts to) but I feel all would be better off doing their own work - not someone else's. All I have is nearly 40 years in the machine trades with time in the Navy as an ADJ before that.

A "mechanic" should be able to work on the assigned aircraft and not call other to drill holes and other nonsense. I assure you, were I in your position as a crew chief, I'd be raising unholy hell if the ones I had were unable to do the simpler parts of their jobs.

The old guys did years ago before it became fashionable to whimper and whine - that's the way I learned both engine mechanics and machine trades.

 

[Bob Owens]

So Don is wrong because he looks at the whole picture? Take off the blinders and look at the whole world.

Don is wrong if he believes the company has or is willing to show him the whole picture.

Don needs to realize that carriers dont share all their business secrets with their competitors, each other.

And the company certainly isnt going to share them with a union no matter how well they get along.

Overspeed, "This aint no Bob Owens mind control thing, and I'm just throwing it out there". What makes you think that AA will show the unions their business secrets? Just because they sign a letter of Confidentiality on stuff that they put out on the SEC reports a week later? Come on, now who is being niave here? $15 billion order for new planes, in addition to what they already have ordered and already recieved, and our $190 million a year is going to kill them? My guess is that with the better morale that would generate it would cost them much less than that once you figure in all the savings from less delays, cancellations and OT.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Don is wrong if he believes the company has or is willing to show him the whole picture.

He needs to be removed from the committee.

My guess is that with the better morale that would generate it would cost them much less than that once you figure in all the savings from less delays, cancellations and OT.

The problem with that is the CPAs and bean counters in charge of this airline haven't the intelligence to realize how far just a little (no pun intended) goodwill could go.

They probably put their drawers on with a crowbar, too.

 

[Bob Owens]

The problem with that is the CPAs and bean counters in charge of this airline haven't the intelligence to realize how far just a little (no pun intended) goodwill could go.

No but they know how to write off $988 million worth of it!

 

[Overspeed]

Don is wrong if he believes the company has or is willing to show him the whole picture.

Don needs to realize that carriers dont share all their business secrets with their competitors, each other.

And the company certainly isnt going to share them with a union no matter how well they get along.

Overspeed, "This aint no Bob Owens mind control thing, and I'm just throwing it out there". What makes you think that AA will show the unions their business secrets? Just because they sign a letter of Confidentiality on stuff that they put out on the SEC reports a week later? Come on, now who is being niave here? $15 billion order for new planes, in addition to what they already have ordered and already recieved, and our $190 million a year is going to kill them? My guess is that with the better morale that would generate it would cost them much less than that once you figure in all the savings from less delays, cancellations and OT.

"Morale"? That's what you get for $190M? USAir has lower morale than us and they had the best ontime record last year. Not a good argument.

The planes are capital expense Bob. Besides, with the improved fuel economy and the maintenance "honeymoon" AA will avoid costs they now currently pay. Older airplanes mean more mechanics. The new 787 MRB is coming in at 50% fewer man hours to maintain than a 767. Hmmm...that comes in at about $100M less annual labor cost due to fewer AMTs.

Bob, you are the one that's wrong. You fight with inadequate facts and a poor grasp of reality.

Oh, and to reference your long winded post earlier. I have not posted under another name but nice try at mis-direction. You can remove your foil hat now.

 

[Duke787]

Why don't we have seperate contracts? That way OH can "bid" for their work and line can "bid" for their's. It seems like it would be a lot simplier for the negotiators as well as the company.

 

[Buck]

What certificate? I've got no certification or licenses (except drivers & amateur radio). They do provide a skill premium (not sure what that amounts to) but I feel all would be better off doing their own work - not someone else's. All I have is nearly 40 years in the machine trades with time in the Navy as an ADJ before that.

A "mechanic" should be able to work on the assigned aircraft and not call other to drill holes and other nonsense. I assure you, were I in your position as a crew chief, I'd be raising unholy hell if the ones I had were unable to do the simpler parts of their jobs.

The old guys did years ago before it became fashionable to whimper and whine - that's the way I learned both engine mechanics and machine trades.

I am an Avionics C/C. So I really do not get involved with the day to day exchange between manangement and other C/C's when your skills are requested. I understand your point, but to lay out the truth it does not seem that the mechanics have the skill to perform thee specialized work.

 

[Buck]

He needs to be removed from the committee.

Give it a shot?

 

[strikeforce]

Hold on a sec - I'm not a mechanic, rather, I'm in the Tool & Die department of TULE. We are constantly sent out to do jobs the almighty mechanics either can't do or don't want to do. We sign for our own work. Very few of us are certificated. Nobody comes along after the fact and re-signs for the work done.

Would you care to revisit your comments?

I would love to see this nonsense stopped and the mechanics begin doing all their work so we can do ours rather than it being farmed out. The old guys, now retired, had no difficulty dealing with their own work - why is it a problem now for mechs to drill their own holes and such?

Frank, I was simply answering BUCK about non-licensed mechanics ASM's...airline support mechanics...the TWU negotiators agreed to include in the failed T/A. BUCK was against signing for work done by airline support mechanics.

 

[strikeforce]

I agree with your statement but no one in the upper ranks of the TWU or the company will identify exactly where the cost disadvantages in maintenance are and by how much. Note: not all areas of mx are a disadvantage, some areas are an advantage. How can we address these disadvantages if we do not know where are the short falls.
they just like to throw numbers out there without breaking it down.
what part of ther 600 million dollar labor disadvantage is aircraft maintenance and what are the specific areas.
Numbers standing alone means little to anyone unless it is supported
[/quote]
Chuck,

let me throw a wrench into this whole OH question about disadvantages and all that stuff.

Correct me if I'm wrong because it's been over 30 days since the last negotiating session, but didn't the company propose to farm out a certain percentage of work in exchange for keeping everyone employed, NO RIFS. Do you recall this proposal?
Well, gee whiz....if AA is at such a high cost disadvantage compared to others....how can AA afford to farm out all this work AND continue to pay all the union workers in OH? Can someone please explain this?

Only one answer....The TWU would accept even lower wages and benefits in order to keep their dues!!!

I can just imagine the conversation exchange between Little, Videtich, Gless, and Drummond and Weel, Burdette and Ream....

Little, "we will give you whatever you want, as long as we don't lose dues paying members".

Ream, "OK".

 

[Buck]

Frank, I was simply answering BUCK about non-licensed mechanics ASM's...airline support mechanics...the TWU negotiators agreed to include in the failed T/A. BUCK was against signing for work done by airline support mechanics.

BUCK is against signing for work done by airline support mechanics. So is the FAA