TWU negotiations.........what?

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ I agree, it's getting old! But I'm not the one who brought it up in the first place! As for paying a price,----- you have no idea Bob!!!! -------- And if the membership, as a whole, is still paying that price,---------- well, all I can say is it could have been a whole lot differant!------ But Hopeful is right, it is what it is!

 

[odie01]

AA Management did agree to present formal counter proposals on all the open Articles at our next mediation session. We will discuss their counter proposals and they agreed that based upon those discussions they will present full text counter proposals on all open articles by the end of the week. The Mediator has designated May 9-13, 2011 in Tulsa, OK as the next scheduled dates and location for the Maintenance and Related mediated sessions.

Does this mean that we are waisting our time Monday through Thursday because they already have their proposal pre-printed? Anybody?

 

[Birdman]

This is shaping up to be another super-session 2010+1. We all know the TWU folded like a cheap tent last year and I believe the membership will be extremely intolerant of a repeat. I also believe that Tulsa will be unreceptive to blanket 7 day coverage without a substantial increase in pay. That is being proven on 1D as I speak. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the line bid on days off including weekends?

 

[odie01]

This is shaping up to be another super-session 2010+1. We all know the TWU folded like a cheap tent last year and I believe the membership will be extremely intolerant of a repeat. I also believe that Tulsa will be unreceptive to blanket 7 day coverage without a substantial increae in pay. That is being proven on 1D as I speak. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the line bid on days off including weekends?

Yes, the line bids days off, including weekends, according to seniority. I don't share the same vibe on the super session, because of last weeks power point presentation and yesterdays twu town hall. I think they will threaten outsourcing and give us basically the same TA with a few extra bones, that's fine though, the last TA produced thousands of AMP cards.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Yes, the line bids days off, including weekends, according to seniority. I don't share the same vibe on the super session, because of last weeks power point presentation and yesterdays twu town hall. I think they will threaten outsourcing and give us basically the same TA with a few extra bones, that's fine though, the last TA produced thousands of AMP cards.

Odie,

I agree. The last t/a also garnered a big fat NO! Another similar t/a will reward the twu/company with another NO reply. Also, ANY t/a without FULL RETRO will be answered with a loud and clear NO!

GO AMP!

 

[Birdman]

Yes, the line bids days off, including weekends, according to seniority. I don't share the same vibe on the super session, because of last weeks power point presentation and yesterdays twu town hall. I think they will threaten outsourcing and give us basically the same TA with a few extra bones, that's fine though, the last TA produced thousands of AMP cards.

At least some on the line knows how strongly Tulsa feels about weekends off. 16 mechanics have bid off 1D (7 day coverage) but none have been allowed to leave and the next round of bids will yield even more. They are only allowing 1 to leave for every 1 that bids in. The theory is the line will bid the openings, 21 I believe, since they already work 7 day coverage. We'll see. As far as a threat of outsourcing they can save their breath. With the mechanic shortage job security is at the bottom of the list and if the TWU doesn't realize that, AMP will indeed be flush with cards.

 

[Bob Owens]

Does this mean that we are waisting our time Monday through Thursday because they already have their proposal pre-printed? Anybody?

We had requested full text counter proposals, the company said that they wanted to discuss some of the articles (move the furniture around) so they would not have them full text at the opening of the session. During the presentation the company admitted that compensation had "shifted" since the TA was rejected and that we had the worst sick time, vacation time, Holiday pay, and most expensive Medical even among those carriers that went through BK.

We won't be meeting with the company till Tuesday.

 

[Bob Owens]

This is shaping up to be another super-session 2010+1.

I dont think so. Of the six guys on the sub-committee four of us have never waivered through all the sessions and the other two are new and have been solid, especially on the 7 day coverage.

We all know the TWU folded like a cheap tent last year and I believe the membership will be extremely intolerant of a repeat.

With the exception of the International none of the people who made that happen are in the room, several are no longer in office such as your ex-President who roll-called it.

I also believe that Tulsa will be unreceptive to blanket 7 day coverage without a substantial increase in pay. That is being proven on 1D as I speak. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the line bid on days off including weekends?

Yes we bid shifts and days off, crews if applicable, its in the contract, but depending on the will of the majority you may have fixed or rotating days off. If you have rotating days off everybody works weekends at some point.

 

[Hopeful]

I dont think so. Of the six guys on the sub-committee four of us have never waivered through all the sessions and the other two are new and have been solid, especially on the 7 day coverage.



With the exception of the International none of the people who made that happen are in the room, several are no longer in office such as your ex-President who roll-called it.



Yes we bid shifts and days off, crews if applicable, its in the contract, but depending on the will of the majority you may have fixed or rotating days off. If you have rotating days off everybody works weekends at some point.

It's beginning to sound to me like there will be NO acceptable contract as long as 24/7 base coverage is on the table.
And yes I am aware that the line supports the base in that area, and they will support our GEO pay.

If anyone thinks 8 years of concessions, (including 3 years without a contract)is a long time, just wait!

I hope I am wrong, but I do not believe the company will give in on the 24/7 base coverage AND they will not give in on GEO pay....
If they give GEO pay, then that will be expected to be extended to non union employees throughout the system.

This will all lead to a stalemate at which time the mediator will NOT grant us our release request and before you know it, we will be 4 years without a contract..
I do hope I am wrong.

 

[MCI transplant]

It's beginning to sound to me like there will be NO acceptable contract as long as 24/7 base coverage is on the table.
And yes I am aware that the line supports the base in that area, and they will support our GEO pay.

If anyone thinks 8 years of concessions, (including 3 years without a contract)is a long time, just wait!

I hope I am wrong, but I do not believe the company will give in on the 24/7 base coverage AND they will not give in on GEO pay....
If they give GEO pay, then that will be expected to be extended to non union employees throughout the system.

This will all lead to a stalemate at which time the mediator will NOT grant us our release request and before you know it, we will be 4 years without a contract..
I do hope I am wrong.

<_< ------- Well Hopeful, I'de say you're going to have to decide what's more important to you.-------GEO pay, is only fair! Without it, places like JFK, or LAX, will always be a "two job", or more, location! And if you go with a contract that doesn't have a reto pay clause in it, you'll be looking at another 8 to10 years before you see another Contract! Let's put it this way. -------- How many more Contracts do you think you'll be working under in your career with AA?------ Maybe two? That means you'll only have, maybe, two more chances to change that "two job" reality!!!---- But no matter what Bob Owens says, as long as the TWU is representing you, Reto, is "not" going to happen!!! -------Something to think about!!!

 

[OldBubba]

There is a easy fix for the 24/7. It's called the 7 an 7, 7 days on 7 days off. You get 40 in each week, you start on Wed and end on-Tues. Everybody gets every other weekend off. Only two shifts days and nights. You work 11.5 hr a day, Hey your working 8 + 4 now so what the big deal! Overtime is easy to, if your off they can call you in to cover someone on vacation for 40 hr.

The oil field was been working it for 30 years.

 

[Deleted member 14439]

There is a easy fix for the 24/7. It's called the 7 an 7, 7 days on 7 days off. You get 40 in each week, you start on Wed and end on-Tues. Everybody gets every other weekend off. Only two shifts days and nights. You work 11.5 hr a day, Hey your working 8 + 4 now so what the big deal! Overtime is easy to, if your off they can call you in to cover someone on vacation for 40 hr.

The oil field was been working it for 30 years.

You really think that is a solution? Never happen. The easy solution is bid shift/days off. The problem in OH is we will not have the requiered support on weekends. Sure we can run the docks but there will be no engineering or shop support. Heck we barely get that support now.

 

[Frank Szabo]

There is a easy fix for the 24/7. It's called the 7 an 7, 7 days on 7 days off. You get 40 in each week, you start on Wed and end on-Tues. Everybody gets every other weekend off. Only two shifts days and nights. You work 11.5 hr a day, Hey your working 8 + 4 now so what the big deal! Overtime is easy to, if your off they can call you in to cover someone on vacation for 40 hr.

The oil field was been working it for 30 years.

A similar suggestion was made re: TULE a number of years ago - far too much in the way of common sense for the "management" to handle. The company really doesn't care about 7 day coverage or anything else like it - they are far too interested in control of the workers to work toward beneficial solutions.

A good example would be why overtime is only offered in my shop (and others) for weekends only when people have said they'd gladly stay late during the week - it's a matter of control - "We can do it so we will whether it's beneficial to the company or not".

Management prefers to play games rather than efficiently run the company - so be it.

 

[Bob Owens]

It's beginning to sound to me like there will be NO acceptable contract as long as 24/7 base coverage is on the table.
And yes I am aware that the line supports the base in that area, and they will support our GEO pay.

If anyone thinks 8 years of concessions, (including 3 years without a contract)is a long time, just wait!

I hope I am wrong, but I do not believe the company will give in on the 24/7 base coverage AND they will not give in on GEO pay....
If they give GEO pay, then that will be expected to be extended to non union employees throughout the system.

This will all lead to a stalemate at which time the mediator will NOT grant us our release request and before you know it, we will be 4 years without a contract..
I do hope I am wrong.

The 7 day coverage is more of a control thing like Frank said. But its not purely just ego driven. The 7 day coverage really isnt to increase OH output, thats a temporary problem that could be solved by simply staffing all three shifts fully and that will go away as more 737s come on line and MD-80s go away, or so we've been told.

I think the motive is different. If the base has 7 day coverage and less pay than the line then the bases will be a source for line maintenance A&Ps for years to come. As other airlines will have to raise pay in order to attract enough new workers to maintain their line operations AA would have a huge resource of long term workers looking to go to the line, they would backfill the bases with new hires from the 7 different Schools that they admit that they've been working with.




At the April meeting the company claimed that if they met our contract demands that could lead to a BK filing six months down the road. We all know thats BS because at this point the company has nothing to gain by filing BK as far as their mechanics go.

Look at the presentation.

Are we any better off than our peers?

The immediate answer is "We still have a Pension and retiree medical".

OK, but both of those things are promises of things we will start to recieve as much as 30 years from now, and there's a good chance we wont. If the pilots hold firm they could bring this company into BK and there's nothing we can do about it, we could work for free and it would not matter, there are countless other variables that we have no control over that could put the company in BK. We have control over how much we sell our labor for, thats pretty much it.
The safest strategy is to make as much as you can and build up your savings, not sacrifice your ability to save and dump that money into a risky corporation where all the decisions are out of your control.

Having and relying on a DB pension for your future is now extremely risky, working for much less on top of that simply exposes you to even more risk in the here and now as well.

Lets look at the here and now.

Our current wages are less than US, DL, Co and the UAL TA. According to the company we earn $2.50 less than CO, Thats $5200 less per year.

We have one week less vacation than most of our BK peers, at our reduced rate of pay thats $1310/year less

We have seven less sick days than some of our BK peers, a o r r o p thats another $1834 less per year.

We lost the pilot cap, so we pay more than most of our peers and we pay around $1200 a years more than the FAs. Havent nailed down a solid number for UAL but it could be as much as $3000.

We get 77 less IOD days than some of our BK peers, thats up to $20, 174 less than our peers.

We get half the holidays at a lower multiplier than some of our peers. All totalled we get 20 hours extra pay if we work all the Holidays in a year while our peers walk away with up to 120 extra hours pay for working those same days. That comes out to $3275
So yes we have a promise at the moment that many years from now we may have the pension they are promising, if they decide to fund it (ref their latest pension disclosure where they said they can change it if they drop below 60%) but in the here and now how much better off are we than our peers who went through the BK process?
VC $1310
SK $1834
Med $1200
Holidays $3275
Assuming you dont get seriously injured just in the benifits side we are $7619 in the hole. Throw in the wage and its $12819 less, on an hourly basis that comes out to around $6.15 an hour less than our peers at BK carriers based on a 2080 hour year. They would have to be contributing $12,819 per year per person for us to have the same result as BK, they put in less than $1200. Less than 10%.

If you get hurt you can add another $20, 174 plus the first two days at half pay $262, $20436. So if 2 mechanics get the same exact injury at work the guy at one of our BK peers would get $28 K more from his company than his peer at AA.

So why should we be afraid of BK? All we have is a promise, a promise like the Supplimental Medical that the company collected and pocketed after 20 years. Have you ever met anyone who collected from that? You'd have a better chance coming across a LOTTO winner than an active employee who got a payout from the Supplimental Medical. While our pension, which is legally and woefully underfunded thanks to our own lobbying efforts, is still a promise that the company uses to drive down wages in the here and now our peers have been getting direct contributions to their 401K plans. Real money that the company cant touch once its there. Hell all BK could do is take away our pension and give us $6.15 an hour more in the here and now! No they dont have a DB pension but they have funds given to them by the company that they can borrow against, use in an emergency to prevent a forclosure and pass on to their hiers if they dont use it. We have a promise from AMR and the PBGC. Ask our peers from UAL, EAL, DL etc about that.

We essentailly are banking that AA will not go BK between now and the day we die. Is that a good bet?

When the pension arguement fails then they go with "we employ more people in maintenance". Yes but AA has had an advantage over their competitors, they had low cost OSMs and other very low paid classifications that effectively lowered the average pay. According to company documents its around $27/hr. Thats why AA continued to increase insourcing and kept hundreds of workers without system protection on the payroll. Those A&P mechanics are now a huge assett as competitors face shortages of mechanics. Third party providors are having a hard time getting people and even their pay levels are approaching the airlines. Thats why UAL is seeing a 60% recall rejection rate. Many of its laid off mechanics relocated to the low cost cities where those facilities are located, their pay has increased and when they look at a $1200 a month mortgage with a 20 minute commute vs a $5000 mortgage with a two hour commute the choice is easy. F U A L.

Do you feel confident putting all your eggs in the company's basket for the future? Sacrificing now for a promise in the future, like the Supplimental Medical? We need to get our money now. Even if as the company threatened we have to come back in 6 months and renegotiate it under BK. Like I said before we could work for nothing and the pilots could still put us in BK.

The company would not realize savings from maint in BK, our peers earn less and our pension costs the company less in the here and now than the DC plans. The pilots have very rich pension plans, they have to because they have shorter careers, there are no Al Blackmans among the pilots, and if the company sets their sites on it there's nothing we can do about it.

So the answer is not only are we worse off than our peers at other carriers that have never filed BK but we are worse off than nearly all those that have. The cost of avoiding BK was higher for us than the cost of going BK. We lag even our peers at carriers that filed BK in compensation, benifits and work rules. Our work rules allow the company to operate pretty much like a non-union shop. While our peers have defined CS rules in the contract we have CS's at managements discretion with different rules wherever you go. While our peers have strict language on letters of discipline we have CDDs and CR1s. CR1s are eternal, our peers have language where any letter regarding performance is removed after a year. Arbitrators frquently allow the company to enter CR1s into evidence that are several years old.

We have to go for the money, threats or no threats.

 

[Birdman]

So the answer is not only are we worse off than our peers at other carriers that have never filed BK but we are worse off than nearly all those that have. We lag even our peers at carriers that filed BK in compensation, benifits and work rules. Our work rules allow the company to operate pretty much like a non-union shop. While our peers have defined CS rules in the contract we have CS's at managements discretion with different rules wherever you go. While our peers have strict language on letters of discipline we have CDDs and CR1s. CR1s are eternal, our peers have language where any letter regarding performance is removed after a year. Arbitrators frquently allow the company to enter CR1s into evidence that are several years old.

Your making a very good case against paying a lame labor organization 2 base hours of pay a month. Perhaps Delta mechanics should be contacted and asked how the non-union thing is working out.