TWU negotiations.........what?

[Chuck Schalk]

I have to agree with your post and have been thinking and or saying something similar to this for some time now....

I've said a No vote would confirm.... Who's your daddy now!

we would have been on the same page if the negotiating committee had listened to the members!! The "NO" vote confirmed only what the members have been saying all along. Who should be your daddy!

 

[toroshark]

You're free to disagree with me, but I'm guessing you have no idea what constitutes an impasse.

The fact that membership hated the offer is irrelevant.

The fact remains that there were productive negotiations and both sides moved to create the TA you voted on.

Had one side or the other dug their heels and stalled the rest of the process, you'd have a chance of an impasse being declared.

But both sides moved. That means there's still opportunity for consensual progress.

Care to explain what were the productive negotiations. Your posts seem to insinuate that you have info that the TWU membership at large does not possess. It seems that 64 some odd percent believe that this either is concessionary or is just plain crap. AA said here is our proposal and for some reason it was not negotiated, it was just sent to the MEMBERSHIP. No counter proposal. No nothing. I agree the intl. and the majority of the negotiating committee were badly mistaken in believing that the MEMBERSHIP was willing to accept a pittance now in order to enact the substantial concessions. You cannot really expect the MEMBERSHIP to believe that AA actually negotiated at all. AA said "take this or nothing". It is unfortunate that our weak-ass negotiators caved so rapidly. Yes, the negotiating committee,the intl., and the membership are definitely not on the same page. But do not try and lead people to believe that AA is negotiating at all. They are attempting to dictate more concessions to us. Hopefully TWU can get it together and actually use the system in place to gain a fair and equitable contract for the MEMBERSHIP. The fact that the membership hated the offer is VERY relevant if TWU decides to act accordingly for the good of the MEMBERSHIP.

 

[toroshark]

[

 

[Bob Owens]

You're free to disagree with me, but I'm guessing you have no idea what constitutes an impasse.

The fact that membership hated the offer is irrelevant.

Irrelevant? Hardly, its extremely relevant. The NMB wanted the members to vote on something before an impasse was declared, well they voted.

The fact remains that there were productive negotiations and both sides moved to create the TA you voted on.

One side moved, the other didnt, they are still going for a cost neutral contract. They claim to be offering $350 million over the five years the contract covers , that comes out to $70 milllion a year. They took away $320 million/year the last contract. When you factor in the concessions and the fact that the failure to roll system protection leaves around 700 without system protections there's a potential savings of $56 million plus with the new MRT language they could still have 24 hour coverage without paying anyone the MRT which would take away another $8 million of the $70 million.Then there's the prefunding.

Had one side or the other dug their heels and stalled the rest of the process, you'd have a chance of an impasse being declared.
But both sides moved. That means there's still opportunity for consensual progress.

I agree that we made a big mistake by consistantly moving towards the company, everytime we did they simply moved back and introduced new concessions.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

The fact remains that there were productive negotiations and both sides moved to create the TA you voted on.

... snip

Productive negotiations usually means something other than playing games for 2 years, then all of a sudden, TAs start dropping from the clouds. These TAs were nothing but the product of lies.

What this vote accomplished, in my opinion, was to show the mediator the extent AMR and the TWU used him/her and the NMB to give an appearance of action/progress to the (they hoped) sheeple - ie, if I were trying to get two parties to come to any agreement, I'd damned sure be more than a tad angry if I felt the parties in question were lying to me and sitting at the table for no reason other than show, wasting time that could be better spent on people who actually want to settle something this century.

By definition, there can't be an impasse unless negotiations have first actually taken place. While some want an impasse declared over a company and union sponsored Dog & Pony Show, what's taken place so far doesn't come close to constituting an impasse as it's doubtful said Dog & Pony Show (thusfar) could constitute negotiations.

E - call Benny the Pope over in Rome when he gets home and ask him if hell froze over - I agreed with you. Check on the recent snowfall, also

 

[Chuck Schalk]

The negotiating committee will be assisted by Mark Richard of the law firm Phillips Richard of Miami, Fla., officials said.

"We're going to do this right, and we're going to reflect the views of our members, item by item," Drummond said.


Lets see what the reflection looks like before we call it right!

 

[TWU informer]

The negotiating committee will be assisted by Mark Richard of the law firm Phillips Richard of Miami, Fla., officials said.

"We're going to do this right, and we're going to reflect the views of our members, item by item," Drummond said.


Lets see what the reflection looks like before we call it right!

They are going to speak for you first, and then tell you what your views are!!

One day last week, Sam Cirri was out on one of the Tulsa Docks. While talking with some AMT's there he said that AA Management had pulled the 7 day coverage for Tulsa off the table. My first thought when I heard this news was, "when were negotiations or proposals being exchanged that would offer Sam such information" ? Has there been some negotiations that we have not been told about?

 

[Bob Owens]

In 1984 starting pay for a Junior Mechanic was $15.58.

The Junior Mechanic program was eliminated by the company in 2001, instead we had OSMs, their starting pay is $9.58 and the AMT wage is $14.74.

26 years and the starting wage for an AMT is lower than the starting wage for a Junior Mechanic!!!

Does anyone know of any other industry that requires similar skills that has seen such a decline?

 

[swamt]

They are going to speak for you first, and then tell you what your views are!!

One day last week, Sam Cirri was out on one of the Tulsa Docks. While talking with some AMT's there he said that AA Management had pulled the 7 day coverage for Tulsa off the table. My first thought when I heard this news was, "when were negotiations or proposals being exchanged that would offer Sam such information" ? Has there been some negotiations that we have not been told about?

WOW!!! Sounds like the teamsters are representing you guys. Oh never mind, same thing, its the other teamsters the TWU. You know if you guys had open negotiations like AMFA and AMP has, then you would already know if they had proposals and offers being exchanged. Since we have AMFA here at SWA, we will sit in on the senority negotiations. This way the members are not only informed, but there is no secret behind the doors negotiations like the teamsters did while they were here. You guys need some help over there at AA. Hope you get some soon...

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ "Hope" for this group of AMT's? ------- Na! I don't think so!-------- They're too greedy, and too fragmented! Always one group afraid the other will get a bigger bit of the bone! TUL and Texas, where living is relatively inexpensive, don't what to see those living in places like New York or California get any more than they would. ------- Fragmented in who gets the most work, or O.T.! For a long time it was TUL/ AFW vs. MCI! ( AA vs.TWA) Now that's history.-------- It's now Overhaul vs. Line Mechanic! ------All the while AA Management is loving it! In fact instigating it! Laughing their a$$ off! And as long as the big boys at the TWU continue to collect their dues they really don't care! ------- So is there any "hope" for them? Not until some big changes in attitude happens! --------- Just one man's opinion!

 

[odie01]

<_< ------ "Hope" for this group of AMT's? ------- Na! I don't think so!-------- They're too greedy, and too fragmented! Always one group afraid the other will get a bigger bit of the bone! TUL and Texas, where living is relatively inexpensive, don't what to see those living in places like New York or California get any more than they would. ------- Fragmented in who gets the most work, or O.T.! For a long time it was TUL/ AFW vs. MCI! ( AA vs.TWA) Now that's history.-------- It's now Overhaul vs. Line Mechanic! ------All the while AA Management is loving it! In fact instigating it! Laughing their a$$ off! And as long as the big boys at the TWU continue to collect their dues they really don't care! ------- So is there any "hope" for them? Not until some big changes in attitude happens! --------- Just one man's opinion!

Easy Transplant, just because Duke in ORD wants seperate contracks does not mean the majority is fragmented. I think the idea of independent craft union like AMP will fly, the word is spreading. It was easy to collect cards today, a holiday we use to have off. AMTs, Facillity Maint, and some Stores clerks had some interest today. Its going to take a little time, but we will get it done and be united and respected by the company.

 

[Bob Owens]

<_< ------ "Hope" for this group of AMT's? ------- Na! I don't think so!-------- They're too greedy, and too fragmented! Always one group afraid the other will get a bigger bit of the bone! TUL and Texas, where living is relatively inexpensive, don't what to see those living in places like New York or California get any more than they would. ------- Fragmented in who gets the most work, or O.T.! For a long time it was TUL/ AFW vs. MCI! ( AA vs.TWA) Now that's history.-------- It's now Overhaul vs. Line Mechanic! ------All the while AA Management is loving it! In fact instigating it! Laughing their a$$ off! And as long as the big boys at the TWU continue to collect their dues they really don't care! ------- So is there any "hope" for them? Not until some big changes in attitude happens! --------- Just one man's opinion!

The OH vs the line came long before the AA vs TWA BS, maybe you didnt realize it but you had the same thing at TWA, because like Tulsa you could afford to ignore the needs of the line out there in the low cost heartland. Thats what the guys from TWA tell me. Putting the majority of the workforce in low cost areas was a smart way of causing division. It even exists at Continental where the EWR guys are pissed that the Houston guys always vote yes and the Delta line Mechs are fustrated because they cant get a union because the bulk of the title group is in the heart of Dixieland. If anything the divisions at AA are more blurred than ever before, both line and OH voted the TA down and you had line stations and an OH station that passed it. DFW, LAX, NY1, AFW and TUL all voted against this, MCI and a few line stations passed it. With its last gasp MCI bent over and said "Thank you sir may I have another". So you had the high cost guys and the low cost guys both shoot it down as well. From what I've heard many in OH and low cost arent too resistant to Geo pay,especially any of those that had to live it. AS far as the International I think between the suprising NO vote and the appearance of a competitor, attitudes, or at least the apprearance of an attitude change, became compulsory.

The TA was a non offer to the line but an all out attack on the bases, for many years the Tulsa base gave AA a huge cost advantage over all their competitors. They could always count on Tulsa to give AA the lowest total costs in the industry. On the line we always made a little less, we had the longest progressions, lost the first year towards our pensions, gave up LTD, and company paid medical before anyone else, had less vacation, less sick time, everyone else was pretty much the same but when you added it all in we came up short. Now AA is trying to compete with carriers that pay their line guys a lot more. Time waits for no man, no corporation either. As AA losses its line mechanics through attrition they wont be able to recruit experienced mechanics (look at how many refused recall) and they wont be able to retain the inexperienced ones the TWU said they have no problem with them putting directly on the line. This will inevitably lead to AA becomeing like Peoples Distress, the training ground where mechanics make their mistakes and learn before they go to carriers that are willing to pay. So thats what the company is facing, sure they can throw a bone to the bases and hope they vote yes, but do they honestly think that bottom of the industry wages are going to motivate us on the line to give any more effort than we are giving now? Do they think if they play a scam like an increased MRT that nobody will see with the shortened window and false "Wage opener" provision that the guys will just suck it up like they did in 1995 and 2003? These guys are fed up, and they dont feel like they have much to lose andthey dont want to play games anymore.


From what I've read a rival to the IBT for the mechanics at UAL materialized in Denver two weeks ago as well. That will undoubtably put pressure on the IBT to get them a better deal. They have to try and explain why an A&P at UPS needs more than $46.99 but an A&P at UAL and CAL should settle for $36/hr. $10/hr is simply too big of a difference to be pawned off as "Apples and Oranges", they have to basically convince the UAL guys that they are Pintos and the UPS guys are Lincolns. I dont think they will buy it especially when SWA will be making $45/hr soon. 2011 may be the lead in to another 2001. An industrywide uprising by airline workers with the unions leaders being pushed from behind, instead of leading like they should by a membership thats more militant than the leadership. Then again we were all ten years younger then ,and nobody's been coming in behind us since then. We can only hope we have a little fight left in us but if we dont its the carriers that will lose in the end. With their better paid, more motivated work forces, trained by us, the SWA and Jet Blues really will wipe us up.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------ You bring up a good point Bob. For years, because of our low pay, TWA was the teacher of AMT's for whole Industry. We'd train them to be good Mechanics, and by the time they became somewhat proficient, they'd move on to better paying jobs at rival Airlines! --------- I even had one "newbie", straight out of A&P school, tell me he was told, by the big boys, to go to work for TWA and get some "experience" for a year or two, than come back to them, and they'd hire him!------- If AA's not careful, you may end up the new TWA!!!

 

[Frank Szabo]

They are going to speak for you first, and then tell you what your views are!!

One day last week, Sam Cirri was out on one of the Tulsa Docks. While talking with some AMT's there he said that AA Management had pulled the 7 day coverage for Tulsa off the table. My first thought when I heard this news was, "when were negotiations or proposals being exchanged that would offer Sam such information" ? Has there been some negotiations that we have not been told about?

There was a letter out by some position-holder (management type I'd not heard of yet) within the past month saying the "enactment" of 7 day coverage with no discussion was not the way he was going to run a business. However - the way the letter read, his intent was to hold talks with the twu THEN put the 7 day schedule in place, at least that's what it sounded like, reading through the pompous BS of management-speak.

Very similar to the old west's way of doing things, it sounded like "Hold a 'fair trial', then have a hanging".

I do not recall what the management fellow's name or title was, but I do remember I'd not heard of him before.

 

[Hopeful]

There was a letter out by some position-holder (management type I'd not heard of yet) within the past month saying the "enactment" of 7 day coverage with no discussion was not the way he was going to run a business. However - the way the letter read, his intent was to hold talks with the twu THEN put the 7 day schedule in place, at least that's what it sounded like, reading through the pompous BS of management-speak.

Very similar to the old west's way of doing things, it sounded like "Hold a 'fair trial', then have a hanging".

I do not recall what the management fellow's name or title was, but I do remember I'd not heard of him before.

Sounds to me like AA doesn't need a contract to go to a 24/7 operation. Seems like they want it and will do it!