TWU negotiations.........what?

[Vortilon]

No the fate of the AMT was sealed in doom when 1000+ A&P Licensed Scabs crossed the picket line at NWA.
What are we going to fight with when we vote no? Face it...If there are A&P Licensed AMT's that will cross a picket line and bust the only union trying to slavage what was left of the profession, then why on earth do you think we are going to fair any better? Your profession was killed, and the truth was exposed when those SCABS showed up at NWA's doorstep to work.

I am all for a no vote and a fight if anyone can show me a plan to succeed, but all I read on here is emotional based gloom and doom and not a soul with a plan on how to overcome the fact that the profession is laced with SCABS willing to take your job. And now we fear the majority of future AMT's will shaft us in other ways than being a scab. GAME OVER

An observation on the scabs that crossed the picket line at NWA. Having come accross a few of these individuals on the ramp - these guys were the bottom of the barrel. Some looked as if they were on work release from some local jail, and the others were an odd assortment of green card holders of questionable backround. Not exactly first round draft picks... Point is, the spare AMT well is drying up, if it hasn't already.

 

[AANOTOK]

Couldn't agree with you more Birdman. It is that way both in mechanic & related and fleet. The TWU, and many unions for that matter are about dues. There is no accountability when it comes to job performance. The worst worker in the world is subsidized by the worker giving more than his share. It 's a shame, but fact is there are many, many "slugs" and I work with them every day. Funny thing is, some of them are our union reps! The productivity you gain from a good worker is offset by the guy working right beside you collecting the same paycheck doing 1/3 the work. Absolutely no accountability from either the union or companies side!!

 

[MCI transplant]

Of course I do, but in this case, the fate of the AMT will be sealed in doom.

<_< ------- Only at AA Hopeless!------ It's sad, but a fact you can make $38,00@ Hr. working for your local Utility Company, with all the benefits you used to have, with a good pension, and not required to sign off didally squat!------ It's a no brainier people! When AA hits bottom, and this, if past, brings it close, those with any brains at all, will just leave. It's that simple!

 

[FWAAA]

An observation on the scabs that crossed the picket line at NWA. Having come accross a few of these individuals on the ramp - these guys were the bottom of the barrel. Some looked as if they were on work release from some local jail, and the others were an odd assortment of green card holders of questionable backround. Not exactly first round draft picks... Point is, the spare AMT well is drying up, if it hasn't already.

You may be right, but Bob Owens has posted several times that there are several hundred thousand people in the US holding A&P licenses. Between AA, DL, UA, CO, US, WN, UPS and FDX, fewer than 50,000 of them work for major airlines. Despite Owens' claims that many A&P schools have closed in recent years, there are still plenty of places to learn how to fix airplanes.

Besides, how many A&Ps become available if/when AA decides to send airplanes to HKG, SIN, SAL or any number of US-based chop shops for heavy airframe overhaul instead of sending them to TUL or AFW? When UA closed IND and OAK, thousands of qualified mechanics hit the streets. The same would happen if TUL and AFW were closed. There certainly aren't enough spare A&Ps to replace all the mechanics at TUL or AFW in the event of a work stoppage. But AA won't be looking to replace mechanics in TUL or AFW. All AA has to do is replace mechanics in several key cities and outsource the rest.

 

[Bob Owens]

You may be right, but Bob Owens has posted several times that there are several hundred thousand people in the US holding A&P licenses. Between AA, DL, UA, CO, US, WN, UPS and FDX, fewer than 50,000 of them work for major airlines. Despite Owens' claims that many A&P schools have closed in recent years, there are still plenty of places to learn how to fix airplanes.

Besides, how many A&Ps become available if/when AA decides to send airplanes to HKG, SIN, SAL or any number of US-based chop shops for heavy airframe overhaul instead of sending them to TUL or AFW? When UA closed IND and OAK, thousands of qualified mechanics hit the streets. The same would happen if TUL and AFW were closed. There certainly aren't enough spare A&Ps to replace all the mechanics at TUL or AFW in the event of a work stoppage. But AA won't be looking to replace mechanics in TUL or AFW. All AA has to do is replace mechanics in several key cities and outsource the rest.

The thing is that the FAA only records the numbers issued, not if they are current. The majority of A&P holders not only arent in the industry but have no desire to enter it. Many used their A&P to land jobs in other industries. I know many of them, recently ran into one.

54% of AA's mechanics are over 50 years of age. It takes at least 10 years to become proficient, the industry is headed towards a crisis, more than half the schools have closed and they closed because the young arent interested in jobs that provide no security, require huge sacrifices, offer minimal pay and they get drug tested.

What makes you think that any of the facilities you mentioned have the capacity to take on 600 more airplanes? The Asian market is growing faster than our market is, they need to work their own stuff and they ship as much maintenance into this country as they get from this country.

What makes you think they would do it cheaper if they could?

The fact is that NWA spent over a year planning to do what you are claiming AA could do and they were a smaller carrier with as you pointed out ,thousands of recently laid off A&Ps on the market. AA hasnt done that,if they had we would have heard about it, as you pointed out there are only 50,000 of us , its a small industry. Just because NWA did it, with the help of the other unions on the property, it doesnt mean that AA could do it, the other work groups are just as fed up.

Right now the industry is OK, but whats going to happen when they try to expand? Remember its takes several years to produce an A&P, and five times that to produce a proficient mechanic.

 

[Bob Owens]

It saddens me, but I can see why the compAAny would lean (negotiate) toward a tiered AMT classification. When I entered AO in the early 90's there was a very small percentage of mechanics that were slugs. Due to peer pressure they were productive, just not up to an average standard. The crews could absorb these sub-standard mechanics and still produce a quality a/c 100% on schedule. I hate to say it, but, there are to many slugs to absorb today. Now in desperation the compAAny, inept at managing, must hire RLG type consulting firms to teach "communication skill's" to its workforce in hopes of increasing productivity. I sickens me to see a young consulting pup oversee a seasoned crewchief hand out job assignments to his crew and then offer suggestions on how to better communicate. So I can see why, though misguided, the compAAny has capitulated. It it powerless to increase productivity so it must cut wages, in whatever form, to compensate.

So a paycut motivates you to be more productive? It does the opposite for me.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

The fact is that NWA spent over a year planning to do what you are claiming AA could do and they were a smaller carrier with as you pointed out ,thousands of recently laid off A&Ps on the market. AA hasnt done that,if they had we would have heard about it, as you pointed out there are only 50,000 of us , its a small industry. Just because NWA did it, with the help of the other unions on the property, it doesnt mean that AA could do it, the other work groups are just as fed up.

NWA wanted 3,500 replacement workers, they ended up with about 1,800. Of the 1,800 I would say that about 1,500 actually crossed the line. Contract workers not working under any type of union rule is probably close to ten times more efficient than a their union counterpart. Don't think for a moment that there would have to be a 1 to 1 replacement factor. Yes there was a lot of relief from the IAM and other unions on the property but do you really think the pilots are going to help you out?

Right now the industry is OK, but whats going to happen when they try to expand? Remember its takes several years to produce an A&P, and five times that to produce a proficient mechanic.

If the AMTA along with the Major airlines has their way an A&P ticket is not going to be required to work on aircraft. A Gen-Fam course is all that will be required. If you check out the MRO Shops you will find that the majority of the AMT's there do not hold an A&P. Keep in mind that there are some really good mechanics out there that do not hold licenses.

It is amazing what a “handful of scabs” can do, just ask AMFA.

You keep talking about AA not being prepared for a strike. No one has even bothered about asking if the TWU is ready for a strike. Are they going to be begging the other unions and holding their hands out in the streets wanting money like AMFA was? Are they going to be demanding their dues form striking members? Does a strike fund even exist? What percentage of the members can go a month without a check or two weeks for that matter?

 

[Birdman]

So a paycut motivates you to be more productive? It does the opposite for me.

No, it's called a work ethic and values, although I could certainly be more productive. My biggest complaint is being shackled to a union, as AANOTOK said, that does not know the meaning of accountability. How can an AMT ever hope to increase his value, i.e. ask the company for a raise, when he could not offer value and accountability in return? Union leaderships primary objective is to increase it's members pay and benefits through the negotiation process. In return the union membership should provide value for services rendered. Who goes first? The compAAny with pay or the union with accountability? Sadly the company pursues division ant the union the same old tired rhetoric.

 

[The Goose]

... snip
Union leaderships primary objective is to increase it's members pay and benefits through the negotiation process. In return the union membership should provide value for services rendered. Who goes first? The compAAny with pay or the union with accountability?
... snip

I'd always heard from other union members of my family that a union contract was a double edged weapon - at AA, however, it's not.

I'd love to see the company float a fair contract - nothing less than restoration of the pre 2003 contract including accountability for the TWU and clean some of the deadbeats out of management also - but people in hell want icewater, too.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

It saddens me, but I can see why the compAAny would lean (negotiate) toward a tiered AMT classification. When I entered AO in the early 90's there was a very small percentage of mechanics that were slugs. Due to peer pressure they were productive, just not up to an average standard. The crews could absorb these sub-standard mechanics and still produce a quality a/c 100% on schedule. I hate to say it, but, there are to many slugs to absorb today. Now in desperation the compAAny, inept at managing, must hire RLG type consulting firms to teach "communication skill's" to its workforce in hopes of increasing productivity. I sickens me to see a young consulting pup oversee a seasoned crewchief hand out job assignments to his crew and then offer suggestions on how to better communicate. So I can see why, though misguided, the compAAny has capitulated. It it powerless to increase productivity so it must cut wages, in whatever form, to compensate.

Cut my wages to compensate and I will have no choice but to remain ignorant on the 23 years of exsperience I have gained over the years. To be blunt how do you do that...

 

[Birdman]

Cut my wages to compensate and I will have no choice but to remain ignorant on the 23 years of exsperience I have gained over the years. To be blunt how do you do that...

It's the new classification of OSM/AMT in AO I was referring to in the t/a. How do I do what?

 

[patriot00]

It saddens me, but I can see why the compAAny would lean (negotiate) toward a tiered AMT classification. When I entered AO in the early 90's there was a very small percentage of mechanics that were slugs. Due to peer pressure they were productive, just not up to an average standard. The crews could absorb these sub-standard mechanics and still produce a quality a/c 100% on schedule. I hate to say it, but, there are to many slugs to absorb today. Now in desperation the compAAny, inept at managing, must hire RLG type consulting firms to teach "communication skill's" to its workforce in hopes of increasing productivity. I sickens me to see a young consulting pup oversee a seasoned crewchief hand out job assignments to his crew and then offer suggestions on how to better communicate. So I can see why, though misguided, the compAAny has capitulated. It it powerless to increase productivity so it must cut wages, in whatever form, to compensate.

Birdman I totally agree with you. The SRP was the beginning of our dullution in 95 and the OSM will be the completion. In 95 we got some good guys to start with, but the last 10 yrs it has been pitiful. If management would only do their job and hold people accountable. It is not hard to tell if a person has any mechanical aptitude or common sense or intrest in being trained. I have been at AFW on the docks since it opened and the change has been very depressing. I have asked coworkers if they wanted to learn how to rig or something else and on more than one occassion been told why they will pay me same anyway. Management wouldn't touch issues and they took peer pressure away from us. There are some really good guys left here but they are truely out numbered by incompentant, lazy, stupid, inmature, worthless, untrainable, warm bodies riding in the wagon. AA could truely cut 30% of the people on the docks if they could get rid of these individuals and never miss a beat. Production would probably improve. The majority of these people upgraded and the opportunity was there for management to correct the problem but failed to do so. The union is at fault too. How many upgrades or new hires has anyone seen dissmissed from the company or returned to where they upgraded from.

 

[Birdman]

The union is at fault too. How many upgrades or new hires has anyone seen dissmissed from the company or returned to where they upgraded from.

They are culpable. They're just oblivious to the fact that they are not the solution, they're the problem, as they come up with ridiculous slogans to mask their incompetence.

 

[TWU informer]

I have never thought of the SRP/OSM pay classification as being the reason for increased lack of production in the last 10 years.

I have always thought when the TWU negotiated away 50 years of pay and benefits to "save" all the jobs, that this left the workforce over staffed and magnified an already existing problem. Combine not enough work to go around with fear of RIF along with disgruntled employees that are subsidizing the ignorance with pay and benefits and the lazy way of life has now become the norm. No accountability combined with concessions for jobs has left us in the situation Birdman describes. IMHO

 

[AANOTOK]

I have never thought of the SRP/OSM pay classification as being the reason for increased lack of production in the last 10 years.

I have always thought when the TWU negotiated away 50 years of pay and benefits to "save" all the jobs, that this left the workforce over staffed and magnified an already existing problem. Combine not enough work to go around with fear of RIF along with disgruntled employees that are subsidizing the ignorance with pay and benefits and the lazy way of life has now become the norm. No accountability combined with concessions for jobs has left us in the situation Birdman describes. IMHO

Pretty much sounds like "The Perfect Storm" B)