TWU negotiations.........what?

I agree that control was probably a big reason. These execs like to run airlines and, just like you, they're willing to work for airlines for less than their skills could bring them elsewhere. Just like eolesen until he left. Other reasons include the fear that Ch 11 in 2003 might have meant liquidation (complete loss of their airline to run). I'm certain they have some huge egos and get satisfaction from running airlines.

I've posted before that UAL spent about $660 million on bankruptcy lawyers, accountants, advisors, investment bankers and other parasites during its three year stay. Then, upon exit from Ch 11, the execs wanted 15% of the new stock. The court trimmed that to 8% IIRC. AA didn't spend any money like this on bankruptcy, leaving it to pay for exec bonus plans (and 35 million stock options for the employees).

Arpey and the AA board may have wanted to prove to everyone that they could accomplish the same thing without spending the money on bankruptcy or wiping out the pilots' pensions. Pilots whose pensions were canceled tend to be even more disgruntled than APA members. BoeingBoy is a notable exception - he seems like a pretty easy-going guy considering what US did to his retirement. They didn't do it to be nice to the pilots - they did it because not wiping out their pensions might keep them happier employees. Might keep them from striking. Might keep them "working together" longer.

Horton recently said that AA paying its bills (not filing Ch 11) has had its dividends, like more favorable lending terms and rates.

US wiped out its shareholders and gave debtholders stock in the first bankruptcy. Then, in round two, US wiped out those shareholders (used to be holders of debt) and gave the new stock to those who still held debt at the end of round one (including lenders of new money). You don't pay your bills and you wipe out the stock you give your creditors instead of paying them and eventually you'll have to pay higher rates and face more stringent terms to borrow money. Like US has ever since.

Another big reason AA didn't file is that AA did not have the same problem faced by US and UA: their pensions were severely underfunded and they were facing multi-billion dollar contributions they didn't have. AA's pensions had much smaller deficits (better money management, in my view) and thus weren't facing the same trigger. Once DL ran thru its huge post-September 11 cash pile, it had to do the same thing: cancel its pilots pensions because it couldn't afford the makeup contributions. US and UA had to file Ch 11 to avoid default on their pensions and other debts.

I'm certain there are other reasons AA did not file Ch 11 and that management would not subscribe to all of my WAG above.

Bottom line, AA was able to cover its pensions and other debts without Ch 11. Most other airlines were not able.
 
Bottom line, AA was able to cover its pensions and other debts without Ch 11. Most other airlines were not able.

You are correct, they were able to cover "MY' pensions and their other debt with "MY" givebacks.
Sounds fair to me.
 
Bottom line, AA was able to cover its pensions and other debts without Ch 11. Most other airlines were not able.


Very informative. At least you did not say AA was so noble to save employees.
Added to the bottom line was thanks to massive concessions, AA lived to fight another day.
And even though they acknowledge our sacrifices, they just wish they could give us more, but because of the economy and state of the airline industry, they regret having to come back for more concessions,,,,,bla bla bla bla
Oh and "we know executive PUP/Bonus pay doesn't look good while the company is still losing money, we are sorry but is part of our compensation package,,,,,,bla bla bla."
 
Here's the company propaganda flyer to the TWU ground workers.

http://www.aanegotiations.com/documents/AA...e_FINAL_001.pdf

And here's the TWU international's response. (I will be bringing multiple copies of this to work with me)

What's your response to this you management drones on here?

http://twulocal568.org/images/TWU_Supplement.pdf


Surprised the Company spin doctors have never replied to this? Eolsen, FWAA where are you guys? You do know that your silence is speaking volumes.
 
Sorry, I thought you asked management drones to respond. I'm not in management, nor am I a drone.

Fact is, when this hit 39 pages, I stopped reading it as regularly.

-----

I think John Conley's a level headed guy, but the only thing that this rebuttal did was give snarky commentary about Management's proposal. It doesn't even try to present alternatives or compare it against the Union's proposals.

They should have titled this "We Hate Management's Proposal, But Don't Have Any Better Ideas..."

I've said it a few other places -- Management's got a lot more transparency on their side. They're publishing the proposals for *everyone* to see. Employees in any workgroup, financial analysts at the investment houses, reporters, customers, lawmakers....

If this comes to a PEB or a S1113 hearing, Management has the entire timeline and chain of events already part of the webosphere and public record. There's no accusations here about back-room promises or deals.

It's a smart move on their part. It's the same thing that Candidate Obama proposed doing with the lawmaking process (and he's failed at that, too) in order to avoid the same image problems they've had in the past.

TWU needs to play catch up in the war of public information. Even their membership has no idea what's being proposed, and that lack of information on their side is going to make reporters, lawmakers, and jurists place a lot more credibility in Management's side of the story.
 
I've said it a few other places -- Management's got a lot more transparency on their side. They're publishing the proposals for *everyone* to see. Employees in any workgroup, financial analysts at the investment houses, reporters, customers, lawmakers....

aa.twu.org

It shows the facts not the lies that the company website has. Fox News is at it again! "Its more transparant because we say it is."

If this comes to a PEB or a S1113 hearing, Management has the entire timeline and chain of events already part of the webosphere and public record. There's no accusations here about back-room promises or deals.

Well they can sum it up in one word NO. Does anyone think that taking a six year contract with no increases after six year contract with an initial 25% paycut is realistic? How has the pay of the people sitting on the panel performed over that same period? When is the last time the government had a surpluss(profit)?


TWU needs to play catch up in the war of public information. Even their membership has no idea what's being proposed, and that lack of information on their side is going to make reporters, lawmakers, and jurists place a lot more credibility in Management's side of the story.

Well management always has the upper hand at disinformation. How many full page ads are Unions likely to buy?
 
Pretty good. Nice stab at the spin doctoring. But you do know that your facts are wrong. Actually to some of us the TWU has been quite transparent in private. You would just prefer that we post that information here, not gonna happen. You know very well Eric that the company has a figure that they're willing to give and YOU know what that figure is too. We don't know what there real line in the sand is? Want to tell us?

As for the point counterpoint I think the most frustrating thing to you is the honesty of it? As for transparency that's a total misnomer. AA's negotiation website likes to only spin it in there direction. Sure it may be SOMEWHAT factual on it's per hour pay but why doesn't it include all the so called little things? Work rules, vacation time, holidays, sick time, medical expenses, IOD, 401K matches, profit sharing and maybe a few other things that I'm forgetting right now? Factoring in all of those things we ARE NOT the top paid in the industry at all. If they really want to be truly factual why aren't those items included?

Now am I saying that there aren't some areas that we have an advantage over our peers? Of course I am not. But hey because AA didn't file bankruptcy I don't think I'm going to finally give them that bankruptcy contract they want and put myself at the bottom. I have no problem with having SOME creativity in my compensation. I think that's very fair to guarantee a strong company for me and my fellow union brothers and sisters to work and be proud of. But I think I'd prefer to be the bar that other airline contracts try to reach.

Eric the truth is that there are plenty of people that I work with who only know or believe what the company tells them. Most likely it's due to some educational deficiencies or an ignorance of today's technological tools at there disposal? But there are many of us who are helping them and bringing them up to speed. And let me tell you my Facebook page is growing all the time.

If the company you work for really wants to have a mutual partnership and a true "Pull Together, Win Together" motto, we can accomplish it. But it's really time that they put away there old playbook. It doesn't work anymore as the other team has seen that same play too many times. I'm sorry if this happens that you will no longer be needed here but I wouldn't worry I'm sure there will be plenty of discourse between labor and management at other airlines for you to procure a position?

Love ( Your friendly neighborhood thorn in managements side)
 
IF it comes to a PEB or a S1113 hearing, the court, arbitrator, lawmaker, whoever won't give what you gave up in 2003 or any other contract much thought, Bob.

They're going to look at the current proposals, the financial state of the company, and try to determine what's fair with relation to other employee groups and what's sustainable.

If you're lucky, a PEB might compare your costs/wages/benefits/scope with peers.

But if it's a S1113 hearing, the only concern a judge has is making sure the company can restructure and survive on exit from court supervision.

Frankly, you'd have better luck predicting the outcome of binding arbitration than you would with a S1113 or PEB.

That's not fear mongering -- it's facts supported by a lot of case law and precedents with what happened to your brethren at other airlines during their respective bankruptcy proceedings.
 
Eric I think the bankruptcy scare on that old playbook has run it's course too. Did you forget the reason Delta and USair went into bankruptcy when they did? Didn't the laws change to not make it so easy for obligations to be dumped? And your cronies at Centerpork won't be able to steer the ship anymore I believe also? I also wouldn't rely on it of course but doesn't your favorite President have a habit of bailing out large corporations? So do you think you can just throw away that old bankruptcy card once and for all? Thank you.
 
Eric I think the bankruptcy scare on that old playbook has run it's course too. Did you forget the reason Delta and USair went into bankruptcy when they did? Didn't the laws change to not make it so easy for obligations to be dumped?

Where are you guys getting your bankruptcy advice? It was Delta and Northwest that filed immediately prior to the 2005 changes, and those changes didn't affect at all the ability for debtors to dump their obligations.

I suggest you study the effect of the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies on their employees.

In a nutshell, the changes shortened the debtor's exclusivity period for proposing a plan of reorganization, shortened the time for debtors to accept or reject leases and made it more difficult for management to take huge retention bonuses for staying with the debtor.

Here's a summary of the changes (not my law firm): http://www.morganlewis.com/pubs/An%20Overv...uptcy%20Act.pdf

And your cronies at Centerpork won't be able to steer the ship anymore I believe also?

Again, incorrect. Nothing in the 2005 changes would prevent current management from staying.

I also wouldn't rely on it of course but doesn't your favorite President have a habit of bailing out large corporations? So do you think you can just throw away that old bankruptcy card once and for all? Thank you.

I wouldn't count on a federal bailout for AA.
 
IF it comes to a PEB or a S1113 hearing, the court, arbitrator, lawmaker, whoever won't give what you gave up in 2003 or any other contract much thought, Bob.

They're going to look at the current proposals, the financial state of the company, and try to determine what's fair with relation to other employee groups and what's sustainable.

If you're lucky, a PEB might compare your costs/wages/benefits/scope with peers.

But if it's a S1113 hearing, the only concern a judge has is making sure the company can restructure and survive on exit from court supervision.

Frankly, you'd have better luck predicting the outcome of binding arbitration than you would with a S1113 or PEB.

That's not fear mongering -- it's facts supported by a lot of case law and precedents with what happened to your brethren at other airlines during their respective bankruptcy proceedings.

Um, where did you say the "facts" where? Because I dont see them.

I do agree that what we gave up in 2003 wouldnt matter to a crooked Bankruptcy judge.
Thats a shared opinion though, not a fact.
As far as the lawmakers and arbitrators, and what they would think, care to prove try and prove that?

PEBs, well PEBs in the past have considered more than just what workers peers get. They also weigh in inflation and other issues.

True, I would probably have better luck predicting the outcome of binding arbitration but my prediction is that it would be entirely unacceptable, given the choice I'd go with a PEB. I've never seen where a PEB granted the biggest highest grossing carrier the lowest wages in the industry, have you?

The fact is that we got the bankruptcy plan already, the only thing that the company still is stuck with is the DB pension, which they admit would cost them more to switch a 3% 401k and the retiree medical.

If a BK judge forced further concessions I would advocate and take part in a wildcat strike. Without hesitation because I would have nothing to lose. You really dont get it do you, we are at the bottom. If AA closed its doors it would just be the kick we need to get on with our lives. Thats what they've done to us, thats why as it was put by management "we suck" on the line.

You cite that you have case law and precedents to back up your opinions, care to produce them?
 
Ah and our other friend arrives. Admittedly there are plenty of frames of reference to study the cause and affect of the new bankruptcy laws. I have no problem letting others post the complete texts. As for my comment about steering the ship it wasn't meant to imply that the Captain and crew were going to be thrown overboard but they may be confined to quarters as the ship runs threw the icebergs? I don't think Arpey, Horton and Reding would care for that at all? And FWAA I'm not counting on a Fed bailout, personally I don't think it will come to that anyway? It seems to me that Oneworld is of a cooperative nature? (Japan Airlines) And and and IATA raising it's Global forecast along with a possible 7.5% quarterly revenue improvement for AMR? Seems to be a plethora of good news on the horizon for jolly old AMR?
 
And and and IATA raising it's Global forecast along with a possible 7.5% quarterly revenue improvement for AMR? Seems to be a plethora of good news on the horizon for jolly old AMR?

That's a 7.5% increase coming on top of a 20% decline. A 7.5% increase in unit revenue over 1Q2009 certainly signals the return of fat city. Oh, that's right, 1Q2009 unit revenue was down 20% from 1Q2008. Drag. That means that 1Q2010 will be down only 14% from 1Q2008.

To get back to 2008 unit revenue, there'd have to be a 25% increase in this first quarter. It's gonna take a real plethora of good news just to get back to 2008 revenue. Good luck with that.
 

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