TWU negotiations.........what?

[Hopeful]

Oh I would hope so....
And go back and read my recent post where i said I don't want one group subsidizing another.
This company had no problem taking concessions while we watched them take their Bonus/PUP pay "because they had a contract."

We had a contract and were threatened with BK, but when it comes to executive compensation, the threats are the other way around and the company usually accomodates them because "we can't afford to lose the key talent, blah blah blah.."

 

[eolesen]

Does an executive of a certain level earn more in DFW earn more than the same level in TUL?

Does the MD of the NE maintenance get more than the MD in the Southeast because of location or personal worth?

Hard question to answer as you've posed it. There's no pre-set payscale for salaried workers like you have with hourly workers. There are pay bands/ranges for each level, and any promotional increase is based on a percentage above whatever you were earning in your prior position.

From experience, moving from L4/L5 to a L5/L6 might see a 7-9% increase.

Where the variability comes in is merit based increases and different pay rates for different starting positions. A L3 at the airport has a different minimum starting rate than a L3 starting out at HDQ (the airport is higher).

CSM's who started out as agents earn less over time than CSM's who started out as FSCs. Both saw percentage increases based off their hourly rate, but chances are the FSC was earning more than the minimum for the L3... Likewise for someone hired before B scale, or who was hired from outside. You don't always start out on the same bottom rung.

So.... by the time they get to a MD position, their increases might be the same percentage rate, but different net amounts because of the difference in base rates... Compound that over a couple different jobs, and you could have some pretty interesting disparities in pay.


The one thing that's constant with management pay --- if you're already at the max for that particular pay band, you might get new business cards from a promotion, but there is no raise. Several years back, there was a pilot who moved into a MD position, and allegedly was probably more than the VP he reported to... The next person to take the job was earning considerably less, despite a more relevant background.

As you can see, lots of variables at play, so no simple answer.

 

[TWU informer]

the answer is simple. This company has never offered the alternative. they have never came to the union and said, we'll give you UPS/WN wages if we outsource this and outsource that..I don't believe in one are of maintenance subsidizing another area.
You keep telling us why and how UPS/WN get the pay they get, bet yet this company has not once offered any alternatives.

How do you know? The negotiations are secret.

Truth is, without the TWU structure the way it is, I'm afraid the line would have already thrown overhaul overboard and taken their pay. It is obvious when you read the post here.

Just as easy to notice an eolesen post always being within minutes of or content about an FWAAA post yet they are not the same person. Obvious is as Obvious Does.:blink:

 

[Buckky]

I think the argument might be whether to keep the non-skilled from being outsourced. Not between the maintenance base and the line.

 

[FWAAA]

Just as easy to notice an eolesen post always being within minutes of or content about an FWAAA post yet they are not the same person. Obvious is as Obvious Does.:blink:

Lord only knows why you continue to insult and slander eolesen by repeatedly posting your supposition that he and I are the same person.

 

[TWU informer]

Lord only knows why you continue to insult and slander eolesen by repeatedly posting your supposition that he and I are the same person.

I clearly stated you were NOT the same person. But feel free to bounce the idea as foolish.

 

[Hopeful]

As you can see, lots of variables at play, so no simple answer.

Well informed answer.
But I believe that AA wishes to give NO ONE anything, let alone a line mechanic over an overhaul mechanic.
If this was the master plan, it would've leaked out long ago.

The thing is that AA has a taste of removing over 40 years of bargaining gains and do not want to give ANY lost gain back without getting another concession in return.

I do not agree with you that AA would pay this employee this much and that employee that much if things were different. I'm sorry, been with AA too long to believe that.

 

[Boomer]

The TWU is praying for a PEB and cannot accept Binding Arbitration because the TWU set their sites way too low.

If the TWU ends up in Binding Arbitration: the Company will trot out the DBP, the Retiree Medical and Overhaul; the TWU will end up with laim claim to the 2003 concession recovery. If the Arbitrator splits the baby: we end up less than our competitors in hourly wages but justified by the Arbitrator due to numbers employed and the back-end cost of the DBP and the Retiree Medical.

The Company is playing chess and the TWU plays checkers in that the company is willing to bet that the current political temperature will prevent the TWU from obtaining any assurance that a PEB would be forthcoming.

The only hope for the TWU is that they get a PEB well after the majority of the industry passes us by and the markets improve to the extent that the underfunding of the DBP and the Retiree Medical funding accounts are coupled with the period of time our contract fell way below the industry standards for the maintenance of the equal types of aircraft.

The question arises around what the makeup of the political body will be when the TWU considers the issue ripened: how good are they in interpreting the potential for change and the opportunity cost of maintaining the status quo?

 

[Bob Owens]

The TWU is praying for a PEB and cannot accept Binding Arbitration because the TWU set their sites way too low.

If the TWU ends up in Binding Arbitration: the Company will trot out the DBP, the Retiree Medical and Overhaul; the TWU will end up with laim claim to the 2003 concession recovery. If the Arbitrator splits the baby: we end up less than our competitors in hourly wages but justified by the Arbitrator due to numbers employed and the back-end cost of the DBP and the Retiree Medical.

The Company is playing chess and the TWU plays checkers in that the company is willing to bet that the current political temperature will prevent the TWU from obtaining any assurance that a PEB would be forthcoming.

The only hope for the TWU is that they get a PEB well after the majority of the industry passes us by and the markets improve to the extent that the underfunding of the DBP and the Retiree Medical funding accounts are coupled with the period of time our contract fell way below the industry standards for the maintenance of the equal types of aircraft.

The question arises around what the makeup of the political body will be when the TWU considers the issue ripened: how good are they in interpreting the potential for change and the opportunity cost of maintaining the status quo?

The majority of the industry has already passed us. Currently UPS is offering a $46.99 top out in 2012. Fed Ex currently pays $41. Continental is going for the mid $40s, SWA is already there, Delta is ahead of us as well as AirTran and Jet Blue.

Outfits like AirTRan and Jet Blue used to be the places where mechanics getting out of school would get their experience so they could move on to the Majors like AA and UA, Now people quit AA and UA and go to them!!

One of our younger guys just informed us that he has decided to quit, decided his second job was better than AA, wanted to just phone in his resignation.

 

[Hopeful]

The majority of the industry has already passed us. Currently UPS is offering a $46.99 top out in 2012. Fed Ex currently pays $41. Continental is going for the mid $40s, SWA is already there, Delta is ahead of us as well as AirTran and Jet Blue.

I have said often that I will take my chances with a PEB. Not saying that we will get what we want, but I will still prefer that to AA's arrogance in negotiating.
The company claims to want a competitive contract, but in work rules only.

The options are believing AA will be fair or a PEB.
Sorry, folks, been with AA to long ago to believe them.

When they come out and say "we'll make you the highest paid if you give us this, this, and this."
I would have to see what the "this, this and this is," before I agree or disagree.
To date, they have not offered that to the best of my knowledge.

To date, they have shown us they want more concessions in return for a pittance.

If a PEB rules in AA's favor, then all of the pro company defenders can say "WE TOLD YOU SO, HAHAHAHA." No problem there.
If a PEB rules more in the unions favor, I do not want to hear how much its going to hurt AA.....Deal?

 

[eolesen]

Tell you what.... I'll agree to hold off on saying "you're doomed!" until there's a subsequent bankruptcy filing, which is pretty much what happened with United.

I know you think your chances are better with a PEB, but will caution that you don't try to use the UAL-IAM PEB as indicative of how a PEB will view your case.

In 2002, all the other employees at UAL had snap-backs kick in, and some saw wages jump by 30-40%, whereas the IAM's didn't. Pay equity for "substantially all of United's domestic employees" was mentioned by the Board as a primary driver in their decision.

Given that "substantially all" of AA's employees are still under the 2003 agreements, I am of the opinion it will be difficult to prove how other employee groups are at any advantage to the mechanics or fleet service.

Also note there is no mention of executive compensation or bonuses in the UAL decision. The brunt of their focus is equity compared to other workgroups, which is consistent with recent rulings in rail disputes.

Lastly... the following quote is from a Clinton era PEB involving Metro-North:

The Board does not believe that LIRR wages, however comparable the work, is an appropriate standard for Metro-North pay levels. Comparisons elsewhere also make sense, whether for similar work at other commuter railroads, for other MTA agencies such as the NYC Transit Authority, or for comparable railroad work in general. The Carrier presented significant data concerning other Northeast commuter railroads (New Jersey Transit Corporation and Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority) as well as Conrail and the National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak). In all four instances, wage levels are considerably lower than at Metro-North, and wage increases granted in the 12 years’ of Carrier’s existence have been considerably less for these four carriers than at Metro-North. In sum, the Board recognizes the perceptions of inequity and unfairness set forth by the Organizations but does not necessarily accept the view that LIRR wage rates are the “rightâ€￾ ones. In addition, there is no reason not to include other railroads, such as those mentioned above, in making comparisons.

That says to me that if you're going to look at pay, don't be surprised if other airlines wages are brought into the mix.

 

[Hopeful]

That says to me that if you're going to look at pay, don't be surprised if other airlines wages are brought into the mix.

So lets let AA decimate us some more. Like I said, they should've filed for bankruptcy and impose whatever they wanted on us...the work rules they want, no pension, no retiree medical,,,,,nothing.....
I cannot for the life of me figure why they did not go that route. After all, executives fare pretty well in CH. 11 because they can't afford to have all that talent flee a sinking ship.
I hope no one claims that AA had the employees first in mind for not filing.

Sorry, Eric, I cannot agree with you and FWAAA that if the company is profitable, they will give us anything. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Profit sharing amounts to a weeks pay up to $$250m profit, maybe double on $500m.
As for other airlines wages being brought into the mix, remember we are near bottom,

The gall of this company to ask us to help make them number one and profitable for a PROMISE of an increase.

 

[FWAAA]

Sorry, Eric, I cannot agree with you and FWAAA that if the company is profitable, they will give us anything. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Profit sharing amounts to a weeks pay up to $$250m profit, maybe double on $500m.
As for other airlines wages being brought into the mix, remember we are near bottom,

You misunderstood my post about profits. I wasn't talking about a profit sharing program, I was saying that management is more likely to give in to large raise demands when the company isn't losing a billion dollars a year. In my experience, protecting a profitable company's operations will convince management to agree to larger raises than when companies are losing money. When the company is losing piles of money, management is more likely to suffer a strike. Strikes scare management when they threaten to disrupt profits - but when they threaten to shut down money-losing companies? Not so much.

I had a manufacturing client that voted in a union at the same time the company was desperately trying to find lifeline financing (it was about to go under) and the first order of business when the new union sat down with management were concession demands. That surprised the union and they said no. They wanted raises. So what's next? Ch 11 filing. Management didn't care and didn't try to save the company. If the company had not been mired in years of losses and had been making profits, agreeing to raises would have been easy. Lots of profitable companies have agreed to raises. Like UPS or FedEx or WN. Non-profitable companies tend to demand concessions. Like GM and Chrysler. And AMR.

 

[Hopeful]

You misunderstood my post about profits. I wasn't talking about a profit sharing program, I was saying that management is more likely to give in to large raise demands when the company isn't losing a billion dollars a year. In my experience, protecting a profitable company's operations will convince management to agree to larger raises than when companies are losing money. When the company is losing piles of money, management is more likely to suffer a strike. Strikes scare management when they threaten to disrupt profits - but when they threaten to shut down money-losing companies? Not so much.

Sure they'll give a raise, because, like AA, they can always come back and say "Sorry, we're losing money, we want back what we took and then some more, so sorry."

I will ask this again, why did AA not get on the CH.11 bandwagon when everyone else did?
Please don't tell me they did it save employees. Please don;t tell me that.

 

[JimJimmyJim]

Sure they'll give a raise, because, like AA, they can always come back and say "Sorry, we're losing money, we want back what we took and then some more, so sorry."

I will ask this again, why did AA not get on the CH.11 bandwagon when everyone else did?
Please don't tell me they did it save employees. Please don;t tell me that.

My opinion, control. Same reason they don't get rid of OH. Our overhaul is quality, and the aircraft don't need lots of follow up once they leave TULE,AFW,or MCIE. They are in service and flying.