Pilot labor thread week 4/27-5/3

[cynic]

The "red" that you are referring to is not ON their badge, but merely an addition to the badge backer they've been wearing for months with their actual badge. So, technically they aren't altering their badges. Other than that, I can't answer your post as to why, I venture to say someone from the west will show up here with an answer, then someone that supports USAPA will rebut, nasty posts will ensue then the moderator will show up remind everyone to be "nice" or they can go spend some time in the cornfield. I honestly believe we can guess the answer, why start a war of nasty posts over it?

Sounds like you just covered the weekly pilot topic, if not the entire US section of the board in one post.

 

[20 YEAR FO]

The red is for the west pilots. They don't want to be associated with us back east because we replaced the union with east guys only. The west or alpa doesn't understand, majority rules.

 

[CactusFlyr]

With your reasoning, we should all be speaking Russian or Chinese.

 

[USCREW]

With your reasoning, we should all be speaking Russian or Chinese.

You're almost correct
They speak Russian in Russia.
They speak Chinese in China.
We speak USAPA at US Airways. ALPA is dead (for now).

 

[fatherabraham]

AAA73-

"You came to PHX to fill a square, told us how it was going to be, and told us 'seniority is like crew meals, its negotiable.' Seeing how you have the majority now you get to dictate to us how things are going to be, some democracy there.

If you truly believe that that you don't want to throw us under the bus you need to show us some good will. Your past actions make that all a very hollow comment.

Excluding us will only make the task harder".

Chuck,

Yup that is democracy. You imply "tyranny of majority" towards AWA. This observor sees no "exclusion" but rather many attempts at goodwill despite post like yours.

It appears rather obvious that the likes of you do indeed see a winfall from Nic, or you would not be so adamant about the award. The Usapa guys say over and over that they do not want your jobs brought to the merger and are willing to "protect" them via fences. But OH NO, you will hear none of that! Be honest with yourself.....YOU want all the bennies of a surviving airline ( of which YOU personally had ZIP responsibility for ) and AAA attrition sans any potential negative consequences like downgrade/furlough.

Hate to brake it to ya.....just usually don't work that way in the airline biz.

FA

 

[wopr21]

With your reasoning, we should all be speaking Russian or Chinese.

Let us be more clear..

он красный цвет для западных пилотов. Они не хотят быть связанным с нами назад на восток потому что мы заменили соединение с восточными вантами только. Запад или alpa не понимают, принципы большинства.

他紅色是為西部飛行員。他們不想要同我們聯繫在一起東部因為我們用東部人替換聯盟唯一。西部或alpa 不瞭解, 多數人規則。

 

[AAA73Pilot]

FYI:

MERGERS, TRANSACTIONS, AND ACQUISITIONS
WHAT’S ON THE HORIZON

Fellow US Airways Pilots:

The constant cycle of change in the airline industry is making good the old adage, “We certainly live in interesting times.†Merger news and rumors continue to circulate, and it is noteworthy that news reports have both detailed the difficulties in combining labor forces, and that there are no deals without the pilots.

USAPA is certainly aware of the latest rumors concerning a merger between UAL and US Airways and of the UAL MEC’s recent press release. I want to assure you that your union is monitoring these developments carefully and will clearly communicate to the Company that a successful merger will require the active involvement and consent of the US Airways pilot group. Should any transaction be misguided, and not in the best interest of our Company and its employees, USAPA will deploy every available resource to stop it.

Concerning any future transaction, let’s consider the following:

The current Transition Agreement between US Airways and both the US Airways and America West Pilot groups has a minimum fleet size. Management has made public statements as recently as the first quarter conference call on Thursday, April 24th that they are limited in the amount of reduction of flying that can take place due to these limitations.

Additionally, for the East pilot group, LOA 93 provides an additional minimum East aircraft fleet size of 202, in which E-190 aircraft are not included in this number. The East fleet is approximately 206. The Company plans to have 25 E-190 aircraft by the end of 2008.

Under the Transition Agreement, the minimum number of West aircraft is 120. The West fleet is approximately 129.

The Company’s stated fleet plan for 2008 is 330 aircraft (does not include E-190), plus 25 E-190 aircraft for a total of 355 aircraft.

Minimum Fleet Recap:

East Mainline = 202 minimum (does not include E-190), current approx. 206

West Mainline = 120 minimum, current approx 129

A question that is often asked is, “What happens if we merge with United or any ALPA carrier.†As we are now an independent union, if an impasse in seniority integration is reached with no resolution, merger negotiations will be under Allegheny-Mohawk arbitration. This provision is in our contract, but it is also a result of a recent change in federal law, which provides that mergers will be governed by applicable contractual provisions “so long as those provisions allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions.â€

The two relevant sections of Allegheny-Mohawk provide as follows:

Section 3. Insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers’ employees, provisions shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner, including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the carriers and the representatives of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree, the dispute may be submitted by either party for adjustment in accordance with section 13.

Section 13. (a) In the event that any dispute or controversy (except as to matters arising under section 9) (note: section 9 deals with issues involving severance payment and relocation expense) arises with respect to the protections provided herein which cannot be settled by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National Mediation Board for consideration and determination. The parties shall select the arbitrator from such panel by alternatively striking names until only one remains, and he shall serve as arbitrator. Expedited hearings and decisions will be expected, and a decision shall be rendered within 90 days after the controversy arises, unless an extension of time it is mutually agreeable to all parties. The salary and expenses of the arbitrator shall be borne equally by the carrier and (i) the organization or organizations representing employee or employees or (ii) if unrepresented, the employee or employees or group or groups of employees. The decision of the arbitrator shall be final and binding on the parties. Rumors of outside interference from any organization(s) such as ALPA are unfounded, as the process will be as federal law dictates. Obviously, USAPA cannot guarantee results, but our focus is solely on the interests of our pilots and you can be assured that USAPA will use all the resources available in order to protect the careers of the 5,200 US Airways pilots.

Sincerely,

 

[EastUS]

AAA73-

"You came to PHX to fill a square, told us how it was going to be, and told us 'seniority is like crew meals, its negotiable.' Seeing how you have the majority now you get to dictate to us how things are going to be, some democracy there.

If you truly believe that that you don't want to throw us under the bus you need to show us some good will. Your past actions make that all a very hollow comment.

Excluding us will only make the task harder".

Chuck,

Yup that is democracy. You imply "tyranny of majority" towards AWA. This observor sees no "exclusion" but rather many attempts at goodwill despite post like yours.

It appears rather obvious that the likes of you do indeed see a winfall from Nic, or you would not be so adamant about the award. The Usapa guys say over and over that they do not want your jobs brought to the merger and are willing to "protect" them via fences. But OH NO, you will hear none of that! Be honest with yourself.....YOU want all the bennies of a surviving airline ( of which YOU personally had ZIP responsibility for ) and AAA attrition sans any potential negative consequences like downgrade/furlough.

Hate to brake it to ya.....just usually don't work that way in the airline biz.

FA

That seems an apt summation by my thinking FA. I'd add my personal perspective that it's both childish and irrational for any to be complaining about "having no Union"...."no reps"/etc/whatever, while maintaining the position of seeking USAPA's sabotage and demise, and/or just sitting back and expecting to be spoon-fed everything, without ever even taking the "great effort" to check the website, or pick up a phone/email/etc....Much less, gasp!..choke!...actually enrolling, and joining in the proceedings.

 

[USCREW]

Let us be more clear..

он красный цвет для западных пилотов. Они не хотят быть связанным с нами назад на восток потому что мы заменили соединение с восточными вантами только. Запад или alpa не понимают, принципы большинства.

他紅色是為西部飛行員。他們不想要同我們聯繫在一起東部因為我們用東部人替換聯盟唯一。西部或alpa 不瞭解, 多數人規則。

...the West does not understand majority or seniority in any language...

 

[Junebug172]

Hey AAA,

You forget the "east amendment" to the A-M. I included it in the corrected version:

Section 13. (a) In the event that any dispute or controversy (except as to matters arising under section 9) (note: section 9 deals with issues involving severance payment and relocation expense) arises with respect to the protections provided herein which cannot be settled by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National Mediation Board for consideration and determination. The parties shall select the arbitrator from such panel by alternatively striking names until only one remains, and he shall serve as arbitrator. Expedited hearings and decisions will be expected, and a decision shall be rendered within 90 days after the controversy arises, unless an extension of time it is mutually agreeable to all parties. The salary and expenses of the arbitrator shall be borne equally by the carrier and (i) the organization or organizations representing employee or employees or (ii) if unrepresented, the employee or employees or group or groups of employees. The decision of the arbitrator shall be final and binding on the parties unless the east pilots don't like it and throw tantrums and cry really loudly - then it doesn't count. Rumors of outside interference from any organization(s) such as ALPA are unfounded, as the process will be as federal law dictates. Obviously, USAPA cannot guarantee results, but our focus is solely on the interests of our pilots and you can be assured that USAPA will use all the resources available in order to protect the careers of the 5,200 US Airways pilots.

Hello kittens, good to be back.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

AAA73-

You moniker says it all- 'For all US Airways Pilots' You forget to mention that they as reps have to swear allegiance to your beliefs, not represent the pilots. Didn't ALPA want to know that they weren't paying for the PHL reps to support a decert drive?

Yours says it all also. I didn't forget to mention anything. That is your conclusion and it's not correct. As I said an interim rep should be out to build the new union, not tear it down. PHL was not using ALPA rsources to openly promote a decert drive, just not using those same resources to openly promote ALPA.

You came to PHX to fill a square, told us how it was going to be, and told us 'seniority is like crew meals, its negotiable.' Seeing how you have the majority now you get to dictate to us how things are going to be, some democracy there.

First off, I didn't come to PHX. After the display from the audience I would have left at the first or second outburst. But thats me. You always have to start somewhere. To make this work for all pilots, the interim reps need to go in one direction. If you don't want to participate, then that is a choice also. This is not ALPA and what you are used to. The period of settling in is fast approaching.

The Cornell plan sounds wonderful, but haven't we been down this road before?

Unbelievable. I haven't seen any official or unofficial communication about such a plan. As far as I know at this time, it started with a west poster putting out FUD. Then let it grow on its own. You may be right, but until such a "Plan" is officially announced, I will maintain that no plan exists. Sorry, I don't follow rumors.

Please understand where we are coming from, your groups reaction the arbitration outcome, our reaction to the election outcome.

I understand. Under the past structure, we were stalemated. With no end in sight. Other than ALPA trusteeship and a cram down. Not good either. I chose a different path to resolve this.

If you truly believe that that you don't want to throw us under the bus you need to show us some good will. Your past actions make that all a very hollow comment.

What actions? Nothing has been done yet, other than work to get the new union running.

Excluding us will only make the task harder. Of course we are hostile to this, wouldn't you be if the shoe were on the other foot. Certainly your mole didn't lead you to believe that we would just roll over for you.

What mole? We have a difference of opinion over one issue. Other than that the new union is for all USAirways pilots.

 

[EastUS]

Hey AAA,

You forget the "east amendment" to the A-M. I included it in the corrected version:

Hello kittens, good to be back.

You were sorely missed. Umm....what?...no "Booshaka!"..."It's OVER!"/etc for us all today?. .Just standard, long-since-tired insults, as per "throw tantrums and cry really loudly"?....Sigh....You've apparently "lost the edge"

 

[Junebug172]

You were sorely missed. Umm....what?...no "Booshaka!"..."It's OVER!"/etc for us all today?. .Just standard, long-since-tired insults, as per "throw tantrums and cry really loudly"?....Sigh....You've apparently "lost the edge"

Forgive me old man, but its been a while and I need to warm up. I was distracted as to what I was going to do with my 2% increase in pay.

Anyway,

Hey AAA, how is USAPA handling this:

Ronald H. DeMarco Wrote:

Dear Capt. Bradford,

First of all, CONGRATULATIONS on doing something that I have been hoping would happen for the past 30 years, and that is....getting rid of the ALPA curse!

As I prepare to celebrate my 30th anniversary (April 26th, 1978 - April 26th, 2008) with this company and don the service pin with 3 diamonds, I look back on my career here at the combination of Empire Airlines, Piedmont, USair(ways) and now America West. I am greatly concerned about one last bit of ALPA business that may once again come back to haunt this pilot group, DATE-OF-HIRE seniority.

You may or may not remember how ALPA, during a push to unionize smaller airlines during the mid 1980s, was allowed, even encouraged, to make an example of the Empire Airlines pilots. To show what would happen if an ALPA carrier bought you and you were not ALPA, the pilots of Empire Airlines were stripped of their rightful place on a date-of-hire seniority list, and placed BELOW pilots that had not even started training...........sound familiar? I lost 7 years of seniority. I have been punished for the past 25 years. I have been denied the ability to bid holidays off, my choice of schedules, my chance of advancement.

What am I asking you to look at and consider? Just like that time long ago when ALPA failed to abide by a date-of-hire merger policy, and just as USAPA has professed to truly support and demand a date-of-hire integration, I ask that USAPA immediately place ALL Empire pilots (or any other group) in their true positions on our USAirways SENIORITY list so that if and when ALPA returns in one demon form or another (a merger?), USAPA will be able to hold it's head high and state with the utmost truthfulness, that we are, in fact, a DATE-OF-HIRE airline?

I am not asking for a windfall. I have paid the price for 25 years (A loss of about 2.5 million dollars just in DIFFERENCE in PAY). I am just asking that I be able to use my 30 years here to exercise my seniority just like any other pilot on our list. DATE-OF-HIRE is DATE-OF HIRE!!! There can not be any exceptions.....because 'EXCEPTIONS' were what ALPA was all about!

We are now the IN HOUSE UNION....just like Empire Airlines Pilots Association was.............when ALPA shows up again.....are we as USAPA pilots prepared to go to the BOTTOM of the list as Empire did so that ALPA can show, once again, what happens to pilots that defy ALPA's will?

Conditions, restrictions??? If you must...........but put my name and those of my fellow Empire pilot's on the seniority list where they always should have been, according to their DATE-OF-HIRE!!!!!!


Sincerely,

Ronald H. De Marco
F/O B767-I PHL

And East...
its "booyashaka"

 

[AWA320]

Forgive me old man, but its been a while and I need to warm up. I was distracted as to what I was going to do with my 2% increase in pay.

Anyway,

Hey AAA, how is USAPA handling this:

Ronald H. DeMarco Wrote:

Dear Capt. Bradford,

First of all, CONGRATULATIONS on doing something that I have been hoping would happen for the past 30 years, and that is....getting rid of the ALPA curse!

As I prepare to celebrate my 30th anniversary (April 26th, 1978 - April 26th, 2008) with this company and don the service pin with 3 diamonds, I look back on my career here at the combination of Empire Airlines, Piedmont, USair(ways) and now America West. I am greatly concerned about one last bit of ALPA business that may once again come back to haunt this pilot group, DATE-OF-HIRE seniority.

You may or may not remember how ALPA, during a push to unionize smaller airlines during the mid 1980s, was allowed, even encouraged, to make an example of the Empire Airlines pilots. To show what would happen if an ALPA carrier bought you and you were not ALPA, the pilots of Empire Airlines were stripped of their rightful place on a date-of-hire seniority list, and placed BELOW pilots that had not even started training...........sound familiar? I lost 7 years of seniority. I have been punished for the past 25 years. I have been denied the ability to bid holidays off, my choice of schedules, my chance of advancement.

What am I asking you to look at and consider? Just like that time long ago when ALPA failed to abide by a date-of-hire merger policy, and just as USAPA has professed to truly support and demand a date-of-hire integration, I ask that USAPA immediately place ALL Empire pilots (or any other group) in their true positions on our USAirways SENIORITY list so that if and when ALPA returns in one demon form or another (a merger?), USAPA will be able to hold it's head high and state with the utmost truthfulness, that we are, in fact, a DATE-OF-HIRE airline?

I am not asking for a windfall. I have paid the price for 25 years (A loss of about 2.5 million dollars just in DIFFERENCE in PAY). I am just asking that I be able to use my 30 years here to exercise my seniority just like any other pilot on our list. DATE-OF-HIRE is DATE-OF HIRE!!! There can not be any exceptions.....because 'EXCEPTIONS' were what ALPA was all about!

We are now the IN HOUSE UNION....just like Empire Airlines Pilots Association was.............when ALPA shows up again.....are we as USAPA pilots prepared to go to the BOTTOM of the list as Empire did so that ALPA can show, once again, what happens to pilots that defy ALPA's will?

Conditions, restrictions??? If you must...........but put my name and those of my fellow Empire pilot's on the seniority list where they always should have been, according to their DATE-OF-HIRE!!!!!!


Sincerely,

Ronald H. De Marco
F/O B767-I PHL

And East...
its "booyashaka"

JB what up??

Bradford and the angry f/o's club bit off more than they can chew. I got a call yesterday from a pilot who's arbitration is now canceled because usappy faild to show and he is now filing suit against the cult and their atty Seeham. This is gonna be fun to watch as this person has been waiting for a year and now he has no idea when he will get back. One word INCOMPETENCE!!! Will the law suits ever stop Buyers remorse I bet...

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Hey AAA,

You forget the "east amendment" to the A-M. I included it in the corrected version:

Hello kittens, good to be back.

Hey Junebug!! Welcome back. In all sincerity. I knew you couldn't stay away forever. Even though I think you came back under a different name a few times. Glad your back none the less. It was getting old without you. How was life working with Pollock and the ACPC? You couldn't have picked a better group to associate with.

Don't forget the other amendments to A-M. The one that says I'm right all the time. Just me and only me.