NMB

[Bob Owens]

by not being released is taking management's side.

Assuming of course the Union wants to be released, of course it is.

The letter inserted in the mail out is nothing new, they've been included in packages before.

It was never put across to the Negotiations Committee. Who authorized it? The fact is that as the Spin off language exposed the committee really does not control negotiations, not even the content. That language was put before and accepted by the company before the committee ever even saw it.

Quit the harping on the NMB, the process, it is what it is and nothing can change it, unless there is considerable movement on both sides.

There has been considerable movement on the union side such as lower wages and eliminating Retiree Medical for new hires and those under 30 who were never in the plan. In response the company didnt move at all, all they did was move the furniture around. They added two Holidays at 2X but took .75c off the line pay.

The company has taken the unrealistic view of camparing us to what competitors that are also in mediation are currently making and not settled agreements. The CAL agreement is in fact open as part of the UAL negotiations. So there are few agreements that can be used, really only WN and UPS. We arent asking for anything near what they are getting.

Currently we are in a unique situation, there are over 50 airline labor contracts in mediation. We usually follow pattern bargaining but there are only two carriers that fit that and pretty much everyone else is in mediation.

 

[Bob Owens]

While the TWU has not been perfect let's compare track records. APA got spanked with a huge fine when the militant part of the union decided to take on the company. The independent union almost was destroyed by a militant leadership. AA management could have destroyed them but had a hammer to get the APA to agree to changes as settlement on the $45M fine. http://articles.cnn.com/1999-04-16/travel/9904_16_american.airlines_1_allied-pilots-association-apa-reno-pilots-sickout?_s=PM:TRAVEL

Yep and how much of that fine did they actually pay?
It was wiped out in exchange for the concessions. The APA took a styraight 25% paycut , got back around 9% after a year because they got credit for prodyctivity gains and are still paid pretty well with their very generous A and B Pension plans. We on the other hand took 25% in paycuts that actually increased way beyond that once Medical is factored in, in fact the company took more than what was agreed to, in may case it went from $500 a year to $3000 , thats an addition $1.20 an hour cut in pay, bringing the concessions up around 4% higher than the 25%. Thats a direct deduction out of my paycheck, not an inflationary adjustment either.

When I first showed up Don and his minions used to always attack the APA and say how screwed up they were, I copied their pay scale and sent it out to the committee and said "I wish we were as screwed up as they are". The criticisms stopped.

Who in their right mind would think another union could do better? To paraphrase a former US President, "It's the negotiating committee stupid." They're the ones that have been leading you. The Int'l doesn't decide whether a contract goes out for a vote! By insinuating that the Int'l, specifically Don Videtich or Jim Little, are some sort of Svengali is nothing short of Presidents like Owens looking for a way to blame others for his inability to grasp the reality we as a labor union live in.

Guess you never read any of the court cases where locals took the International to court. Guess you forgot 2003 where Jim Little decided that we would have a revote and then retracted that. Guess you missed where Jim Little decided in 2010 that the Fleet Contract would not go out for a vote. Guess you missed when Bobby Gless told the joint that if they failed to have a quorum that the International would simply do the negotiations without them. You are either just wrong or deliberately putting out false information.The fact is that the TWU testified and the courts agreed that none of the committees that are formed have any jurisdiction over the contracts or union policy. I've already brought up how the spin off language, written by the TWU lawyer, was presented to and accepted by the company before the negotiating committee ever even saw it, let alone discussed and voted to put it forward.

Are Aircraft Mechanics at WN and UPS Union? Mechanics at Jet Blue arent union and even they top out at around $7/hr more than us. No they dont have OH, prove to me that in house is not cost effective and then lets figure out the break even wage to make it so but dont expect me to blindly accept that in house OH is the reason why we cant expect what other carriers have agreed to pay their mechanics. Maybe you underestimate and have no faith in Labor.

 

[Bob Owens]

The TWU won against the company's TRO so I would call that a win. We did not get fined at AA.

Never said Carty was honest. However where other unions took "full pay to the last day" they got exactly that. Unfortunately thousands did indeed have their last day back in 2003/2004 and many retirees that had no control lost medical and benefits. So while the TWU approach to the problem of solving the cost problem was not what everyone who remained liked, it was better than the big fat goose egg many at UA, US, HP, DL, and NWA got.

Wrong, AMFA was the only union that said full pay till the last day and that came in 2005. UAL and USAIR all agreed to concessions, only to face a second round because we gave up more outside of BK than they initially lost in BK. UAL and US never had OSMs which AA already had in place since 1995, so there was no way they could compete with AA's low cost in house OH model, so they outsourced. Congratulations, we helped destroy the profession.

APA got partial snapback because the transistion of all the pilots to different fleets created a problem to reach the immediate financial goal that was set for them. Know the full story before saying they got snapback because in reality they didn't. They took deeper cuts up front.

Not really, they kept their medical and most other work rules. Since 2003 they got back nearly double, percentage wise, than we did. How much did we get back for all the guys who bumped into OSM classification?

Yes TWU did create lower paid classifications as a response to other airlines like Southwest and NW outsourcing more. It was either give up the jobs to outsourcing or keep them in-house.

Back in 1995, when SRPs were created I beleieve AA outsourced more than NWA, WN always outsourced.

Don't like 50% sick pay either but if you had worked at Continental the first SK day was unpaid from 1983 on until the IBT got in. At UA they only had to give up things like airframe overhaul or approximately 4,000 jobs to get 75% sick pay. Yeah, great win there.

1/2 pay for the first two comes out the same a no pay for the first day if you call in sick more than one day, so we got the same as non-Union CAL had. Are you saying that UAL guys were given the option of keeping OH in house in exchage for sick time? I think you are wrong there. By the way we lost over 4000 jobs since 2003 in Maintenance as well.

No Southwest created cross-utilization in the industry. Part of the reason they get paid so much.

So we got cross utilization but not the pay.

The phone vote is used by many locals on systems like Ballot Point. Many locals use the "phone" vote for officer elections so what was done is not all that sinister and extraordinary.

What was sinister was the numbers were sequential and 3000 high seniority(more likely to vote NO) voters were not sent ballotts.

 

[Bob Owens]

that is not cross utilization. Going back to the Crandall days and DURING negotiations, Crandall offered that he would grow the airline (which he did) if the union would entertain changes to the contract. Remember at that time cities like JFK, LGA to name 2, amts did not deice aircraft. So the deicing of aircraft was included in the job discription of the FSC. My job security never depended on deicing, although I did deice many, many times. Is it not better to have amts fix airplanes than deicing? Deicing is a spotty job at best, and the need is sporadic.

When I started in 1986 all the deicing was done by Maint at both LGA and JFK.
It was overtime and its money out of our pockets by losing it. Engine changes are sporadic as well, should we give that up as well?

 

[Bob Owens]

Strike? Maybe but odds are against it. The NMB will probably not even answer the request like they have done with the APA. But of they do there are several outcomes. Union can seek self help, AA can impose their last offer, NMB can offer binding arbitration, or we could go to a PEB.

What would they cite as their reason for not following their own flow chart? We've been in Mediation for nearly three years, took back a TA which was rejected and the Mediators are the ones who said they will not schedule any further meetings. According to their chart when they walk out they offer binding Arbitration.

 

[Observer]

When I started in 1986 all the deicing was done by Maint at both LGA and JFK.
It was overtime and its money out of our pockets by losing it. Engine changes are sporadic as well, should we give that up as well?
[/quote
C.mon Bob, your position equating the 2 jobs are not even in the ball park. Deicing is at best seasonal.

 

[strikeforce]

When I started in 1986 all the deicing was done by Maint at both LGA and JFK.
It was overtime and its money out of our pockets by losing it. Engine changes are sporadic as well, should we give that up as well?

C.mon Bob, your position equating the 2 jobs are not even in the ball park. Deicing is at best seasonal.

The point being that maintenance had deicing and it made us tons of money, and the TWU agreed to give it to a lower classification that is paid less. just another concession to the company.

Bob, don't give the twu anymore ideas.....at ord, the company keeps threatening to get rid of engine crew when they don't make there numbers, and everytime they do, the planes that need engine changes usually sit for days. AA will never learn!

 

[Observer]

The point being that maintenance had deicing and it made us tons of money, and the TWU agreed to give it to a lower classification that is paid less. just another concession to the company.

Bob, don't give the twu anymore ideas.....at ord, the company keeps threatening to get rid of engine crew when they don't make there numbers, and everytime they do, the planes that need engine changes usually sit for days. AA will never learn!

it was not a concession, and a ton of money was never made. You are under a misconception that deicing was some constant proposition. In the long view there has been much more money made over the years working on aircraft than the seasonal and sporadic deicing OT, besides OT was not always needed for deicing.

 

[strikeforce]

it was not a concession, and a ton of money was never made. You are under a misconception that deicing was some constant proposition. In the long view there has been much more money made over the years working on aircraft than the seasonal and sporadic deicing OT, besides OT was not always needed for deicing.

it's not a misconception, amt work has been sold to lower class.....srp and osm, and even in the rejected T/A the TWU was ready to hand AA the "airline support mechanic". I don't know about you, but I'm not in this business to watch my job, wages and benefits sold out to non-licensed helpers just so WE can keep in house maintenance. The TWU is artificially lowering AA labor costs that one day will equal the MRO's in SA and China. Just give them time! What's next having building cleaners change reading lights and sidewall lights??

 

[Bob Owens]

C.mon Bob, your position equating the 2 jobs are not even in the ball park. Deicing is at best seasonal.

Of course it was seasonal, and we get around a dozen snow events a year. Thats 12 OTs for at least 48 hrs of OT, usually more. So a loss of $2,000. It was a concession, anytime you lose work its a concession.

 

[Observer]

Of course it was seasonal, and we get around a dozen snow events a year. Thats 12 OTs for at least 48 hrs of OT, usually more. So a loss of $2,000. It was a concession, anytime you lose work its a concession.

I beg to differ sir. Losing that work was never a concession because in the long run we got more work, more amts, with more airplanes just as Bob C said he would do. The negotiators at that time had the foresight to make the deal that would benefit us in the long run. Today I am not so sure. We are in negotiations, give and take on BOTH sides, but our side is in the pickle because of everything that the company wants to bargain for is considered by many as a concession. Both sides have needs in ANY negotiations. 2003 happened, we gave much, is it possible to get it all back in this economy, probably not. There are so many vitrolic comments about the union, the company, neither party can escape the out right hatred stated on this web site. Even the mediator probably has made comments about how poisoned the atmosphere has become. Our business has changed dramatically since deregulation began, and the last 10+ plus years have not been a walk in the park either.

 

[strikeforce]

I beg to differ sir. Losing that work was never a concession because in the long run we got more work, more amts, with more airplanes just as Bob C said he would do. The negotiators at that time had the foresight to make the deal that would benefit us in the long run. Today I am not so sure. We are in negotiations, give and take on BOTH sides, but our side is in the pickle because of everything that the company wants to bargain for is considered by many as a concession. Both sides have needs in ANY negotiations. 2003 happened, we gave much, is it possible to get it all back in this economy, probably not. There are so many vitrolic comments about the union, the company, neither party can escape the out right hatred stated on this web site. Even the mediator probably has made comments about how poisoned the atmosphere has become. Our business has changed dramatically since deregulation began, and the last 10+ plus years have not been a walk in the park either.

We gave everything up in 2003, and yes, everytime the company wants something or moves work from a higher paid classification to a lower paid classification is considered a concession on the unions part, is it not????

I think there's much more hatred towards the TWU INTL leadership from the membership because of the shanangins that your seeing right now with vote for release. In my 21 years at AA, I can't mention one positive event that I can say that the TWU was looking out for the best interest of the AMT. Not one! And that my friend is pretty pathetic considering that the union has collected about $600 a year in dues and the only thing that I've gotten in return has been a $2 calender and perhaps a t-shirt!

 

[Overspeed]

Wrong, AMFA was the only union that said full pay till the last day and that came in 2005. UAL and USAIR all agreed to concessions, only to face a second round because we gave up more outside of BK than they initially lost in BK. UAL and US never had OSMs which AA already had in place since 1995, so there was no way they could compete with AA's low cost in house OH model, so they outsourced. Congratulations, we helped destroy the profession.



Not really, they kept their medical and most other work rules. Since 2003 they got back nearly double, percentage wise, than we did. How much did we get back for all the guys who bumped into OSM classification?



Back in 1995, when SRPs were created I beleieve AA outsourced more than NWA, WN always outsourced.



1/2 pay for the first two comes out the same a no pay for the first day if you call in sick more than one day, so we got the same as non-Union CAL had. Are you saying that UAL guys were given the option of keeping OH in house in exchage for sick time? I think you are wrong there. By the way we lost over 4000 jobs since 2003 in Maintenance as well.




So we got cross utilization but not the pay.



What was sinister was the numbers were sequential and 3000 high seniority(more likely to vote NO) voters were not sent ballotts.

Spin, spin, spin...

AMFA lost how many jobs at NWA? More than 90% and they gave concessions before AA in the early 90s through pay cuts. AA had to compete with the pay cuts that the IAM gave up. The others outsourced way before AA did and CAL and DL had mechanic helpers in the 80s. They destroyed the profession, not the TWU.

Not saying the give back on medical benefits is good. Saying the APA did not get full snap back.

NWA and AA outsourced 19% and 18% respectively.

We also parked several hundred aircraft. Are you saying we should have kept people on staff even if there was no aircraft to work on?

No Southwest got cross utilization, outsourcing, and the pay.

Where is the evidence to prove these claims?

 

[eolesen]

We gave everything up in 2003,

No, you didn't give "everything" up in 2003. You lost money and workrules. But you also kept more jobs than you should have, pensions stayed intact and so did scope in its entirety.

and yes, everytime the company wants something or moves work from a higher paid classification to a lower paid classification is considered a concession on the unions part, is it not????

Again, no.

It's a concession *only* if you get less or nothing in return. If you get something in return, it's a compromise. In 2003,

I'm surprised you or Bob didn't bring up mechanics doing push-backs.

Just because a mechanic once did the job doesn't mean it required the expertise of a mechanic. Stuff like push-backs and deicing were busy-work. Things that were done because the mechanic was there, and couldn't be fixing the airplane while those activities were taking place. They required a bare minimum of skill and training, not a license.

I'm sure mechanics (or their apprentices) probably used to clean up the toilets or sweep up the hangar floor back in the day. Maybe those jobs should return, too?

 

[chris perry]

Deicing is a safety item and was required by The FAA back then, it wasn't just busy work... It's just a layer of safety that has been removed,lobbied by Airlines.....