NMB

[Overspeed]

Dunno about the APA or the APFA, but if I were a member of the TWU, I'd be enraged if the incompetent worthless union secured a release from mediated negotiations and attempted to "lead" me and my coworkers in any sort of self-help. Decades of demonstrated failure already - who in their right mind would trust those idiots to call a strike?

Cart before the horse. Replace the TWU with another union and THEN seek a release.

While the TWU has not been perfect let's compare track records. APA got spanked with a huge fine when the militant part of the union decided to take on the company. The independent union almost was destroyed by a militant leadership. AA management could have destroyed them but had a hammer to get the APA to agree to changes as settlement on the $45M fine. http://articles.cnn.com/1999-04-16/travel/9904_16_american.airlines_1_allied-pilots-association-apa-reno-pilots-sickout?_s=PM:TRAVEL

AMFA took their members on an ill advised strike of NWA and all but 800 lost their jobs. Call the 800 scabs if you want. Lost jobs, pensions, benefits, and wages but they showed management. Hey, the guy who ran NWA now runs DL now much larger and profitable than AA. Hmmmm...who won?

AMFA didn't even try to fight the outsourcing at UAL! Eventually they got booted by the members who saw them as ineffective and now have the Teamsters. 5,000 some odd jobs lost, pensions eliminated, wages slashed, and retirees shafted. They took management on though and caused them great pain...oh wait. Isn't UAL management now running the largest airline with fat salaries? Hmmmm...who won?

AMFA at Southwest is doing great! They have the highest wages of all AMTs. They only had to agree to having heavy checks outsourced to El Salvador to offset their higher wages for the line and about six lines of in-house heavy lines of airframe overhaul. Hmmmm

APFA seems to be the only one that has solidarity to the point they are effective at keeping jobs. Unfortunately they have asked for release and have not got it yet. NMB just does not seem to want to release anyone. http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/2011/03/apfa-president-tells-members-nmb-wont-release-union-from-contract-talks-with-american.html

So that leaves AMP who if you listen to there supporters they will resolve everything, oh wait, maybe not. Ken MacTiernan said it perfectly on this website. "You are correct that AMP can not change stalled negotiations nor can AMP prevent management from getting bonuses. The difference between AMP and the twu is that AMP finds negotiation stall tactics on the part of the company/bonuses while labor suffers under continued concessions disrespectful and dishonest and AMP will be vocal about it." So AMP will get us a voice that tells the company they are disrespecting us but can't do anything to stop stalled negotiations. All righty then!

Who in their right mind would think another union could do better? To paraphrase a former US President, "It's the negotiating committee stupid." They're the ones that have been leading you. The Int'l doesn't decide whether a contract goes out for a vote! By insinuating that the Int'l, specifically Don Videtich or Jim Little, are some sort of Svengali is nothing short of Presidents like Owens looking for a way to blame others for his inability to grasp the reality we as a labor union live in.

 

[eolesen]

The difference between AMP and the twu is that AMP finds negotiation stall tactics on the part of the company/bonuses while labor suffers under continued concessions disrespectful and dishonest and AMP will be vocal about it." So AMP will get us a voice that tells the company they are disrespecting us but can't do anything to stop stalled negotiations. All righty then!

There are some other key differences, such as:

• AMP doesn't have a structure whereby the International can agree to a contract "without further ratification"
• AMP has said they will conduct negotiations with professional negotiators, not just laymen who think they can negotiate

The second point is probably the more critical. One of the reasons APA seems to be moving along is that they contracted with ALPA for professional assistance. That not only means less "pulling the wool over the eyes" at the bargaining table, but also a more realistic presentation of the proposals to the membership if and when a TA is presented. It's possible (maybe not likely) that the way the negotiating team positioned the now-defeated TA had as much to do with its defeat as the actual language.

Not going to bother re-reading the proposed constitution again, but I also seem to recall that any contract revision would require membership approval.

That means no more side letters, no more Jim Little rubber stamping without ratification...

I know, minor differences. Better to stick with the devil you know, right?

 

[strikeforce]

While the TWU has not been perfect let's compare track records. APA got spanked with a huge fine when the militant part of the union decided to take on the company. The independent union almost was destroyed by a militant leadership. AA management could have destroyed them but had a hammer to get the APA to agree to changes as settlement on the $45M fine.

Are YOU kidding me!!! You need to look in the mirror, buddy!

How about the job action court injunction AA had against the TWU in 2000. You forgot about that, didn't you. AA could of destroyed the TWU, and did in 2003 with unprecedented concessions. I recall my president telling me that Carty basically walked into the room and said, "you either give it to me, or I'm going to steal it from you in BK". The TWU got real busy destroying our agreement. It took 10 minutes to destroy 50 years worth of negotiating. Did we get snapback, hell no. APA at least got something back, if not most.

What else has the TWU been famous for.....

1. union that created lower paid non-licensed work groups in the airline industry.....OSM/SRP

2. union that created 1/2 pay for sick time.......even BK UA had 75% of pay for sick time.

3. union that created cross-utilization in the airline industry.

4. union that agreed to No paid lunches and NO penalty hours.

5. union that circumvented their own constitution in favor of some ridiculous phone vote to meet managements timeline in 2003.

.....and the list goes on and on!

Someone on an earlier thread said, "other BK airlines went back to the courts to get more concessions because AA got way more VOLUNTARY concessions from their employees than those airlines got in BK", and the union told the members to accept voluntary concessions because WE would be worse off in BK. Really, Overspeed!!

Overspeed, I wouldn't go around bragging about the TWU.....they are the industry standards for concessions and givebacks.

 

[Overspeed]

Are YOU kidding me!!! You need to look in the mirror, buddy!

How about the job action court injunction AA had against the TWU in 2000. You forgot about that, didn't you. AA could of destroyed the TWU, and did in 2003 with unprecedented concessions. I recall my president telling me that Carty basically walked into the room and said, "you either give it to me, or I'm going to steal it from you in BK". The TWU got real busy destroying our agreement. It took 10 minutes to destroy 50 years worth of negotiating. Did we get snapback, hell no. APA at least got something back, if not most.

What else has the TWU been famous for.....

1. union that created lower paid non-licensed work groups in the airline industry.....OSM/SRP

2. union that created 1/2 pay for sick time.......even BK UA had 75% of pay for sick time.

3. union that created cross-utilization in the airline industry.

4. union that agreed to No paid lunches and NO penalty hours.

5. union that circumvented their own constitution in favor of some ridiculous phone vote to meet managements timeline in 2003.

.....and the list goes on and on!

Someone on an earlier thread said, "other BK airlines went back to the courts to get more concessions because AA got way more VOLUNTARY concessions from their employees than those airlines got in BK", and the union told the members to accept voluntary concessions because WE would be worse off in BK. Really, Overspeed!!

Overspeed, I wouldn't go around bragging about the TWU.....they are the industry standards for concessions and givebacks.

The TWU won against the company's TRO so I would call that a win. We did not get fined at AA.

Never said Carty was honest. However where other unions took "full pay to the last day" they got exactly that. Unfortunately thousands did indeed have their last day back in 2003/2004 and many retirees that had no control lost medical and benefits. So while the TWU approach to the problem of solving the cost problem was not what everyone who remained liked, it was better than the big fat goose egg many at UA, US, HP, DL, and NWA got.

APA got partial snapback because the transistion of all the pilots to different fleets created a problem to reach the immediate financial goal that was set for them. Know the full story before saying they got snapback because in reality they didn't. They took deeper cuts up front.

Yes TWU did create lower paid classifications as a response to other airlines like Southwest and NW outsourcing more. It was either give up the jobs to outsourcing or keep them in-house.

Don't like 50% sick pay either but if you had worked at Continental the first SK day was unpaid from 1983 on until the IBT got in. At UA they only had to give up things like airframe overhaul or approximately 4,000 jobs to get 75% sick pay. Yeah, great win there.

No Southwest created cross-utilization in the industry. Part of the reason they get paid so much.

I liked PH and PL too. Made a lot of money on those things. I hope we get that back too but you are complaining about decisions after the fact. The Presidents that we elected made those choices and what to bring back.

The phone vote is used by many locals on systems like Ballot Point. Many locals use the "phone" vote for officer elections so what was done is not all that sinister and extraordinary.

"Someone said...," oh then "they" must be stating "facts". Where are the examples? And they may be right, AA probably did close the advanatge they thought they had when they went to BK. When AA and the unions worked out an agreement that lowered cost, the BK advantages they thought they had gained had shrunk. They probably did have to go back to court.

Not bragging but giving more context as the problems and solutions are simple when you are sitting around a break room table.

 

[strikeforce]

The TWU won against the company's TRO so I would call that a win. We did not get fined at AA.

Never said Carty was honest. However where other unions took "full pay to the last day" they got exactly that. Unfortunately thousands did indeed have their last day back in 2003/2004 and many retirees that had no control lost medical and benefits. So while the TWU approach to the problem of solving the cost problem was not what everyone who remained liked, it was better than the big fat goose egg many at UA, US, HP, DL, and NWA got.

APA got partial snapback because the transistion of all the pilots to different fleets created a problem to reach the immediate financial goal that was set for them. Know the full story before saying they got snapback because in reality they didn't. They took deeper cuts up front.

Yes TWU did create lower paid classifications as a response to other airlines like Southwest and NW outsourcing more. It was either give up the jobs to outsourcing or keep them in-house.

Don't like 50% sick pay either but if you had worked at Continental the first SK day was unpaid from 1983 on until the IBT got in. At UA they only had to give up things like airframe overhaul or approximately 4,000 jobs to get 75% sick pay. Yeah, great win there.

No Southwest created cross-utilization in the industry. Part of the reason they get paid so much.

I liked PH and PL too. Made a lot of money on those things. I hope we get that back too but you are complaining about decisions after the fact. The Presidents that we elected made those choices and what to bring back.

The phone vote is used by many locals on systems like Ballot Point. Many locals use the "phone" vote for officer elections so what was done is not all that sinister and extraordinary.

"Someone said...," oh then "they" must be stating "facts". Where are the examples? And they may be right, AA probably did close the advanatge they thought they had when they went to BK. When AA and the unions worked out an agreement that lowered cost, the BK advantages they thought they had gained had shrunk. They probably did have to go back to court.

Not bragging but giving more context as the problems and solutions are simple when you are sitting around a break room table.

You got that right that Carty was dishonest, and Little was dishonest to the membership when he wrote an April 17, 2003 letter talking about the SERP, and how he wasn't going through with ratification, and low and behold he did just that.

Ok you admitted that APA got partial snapback.....that's all I need on that issue.

Ok you admitted TWU created lower classifications in order to keep the dues machine going!

UA does get 75% for sick time.....good!

Never in my 21 years at AA did I vote for the contract by phone, except during the raping!

Not sitting around the break room, at home having lunch, and certainly not bragging about my union, either.

Thanks for clarifying my points....now get back to working your laptop on the company dime!

 

[Overspeed]

You got that right that Carty was dishonest, and Little was dishonest to the membership when he wrote an April 17, 2003 letter talking about the SERP, and how he wasn't going through with ratification, and low and behold he did just that.

Ok you admitted that APA got partial snapback.....that's all I need on that issue.

Ok you admitted TWU created lower classifications in order to keep the dues machine going!

UA does get 75% for sick time.....good!

Never in my 21 years at AA did I vote for the contract by phone, except during the raping!

Not sitting around the break room, at home having lunch, and certainly not bragging about my union, either.

Thanks for clarifying my points....now get back to working your laptop on the company dime!

If the TWU gets fewer jobs but higher rates of pay, according to the constitution the Int'l gets a bigger raise. Also, if fewer people get a bigger raise the dues rate is two times your wage per month. Again, more money so membership headcount does not mean more dues. The TWU did not create new clasifications to reap more dues. There are other ways to do that if they wanted to.

UA sick time 75% good at the expense of jobs, benefits for retirees, and pension. Another IGM'er great.

So just because something is new in 21 years it's bad? Reluctance to change unless it suits your means. I suppose you get upset and refuse to use email, online bidding, and CS'ing too because in all of your 21 years you never did that either right? Voting electronically had very little to do with the outcome other than the fact that this was the first time and it was a bit awkward.

I work swing so no I am not on the computer on company time. I will be on my iPad2 though when I get to work playing Words with Friends. Look me up.

 

[Observer]

If the TWU gets fewer jobs but higher rates of pay, according to the constitution the Int'l gets a bigger raise. Also, if fewer people get a bigger raise the dues rate is two times your wage per month. Again, more money so membership headcount does not mean more dues. The TWU did not create new clasifications to reap more dues. There are other ways to do that if they wanted to.

UA sick time 75% good at the expense of jobs, benefits for retirees, and pension. Another IGM'er great.

So just because something is new in 21 years it's bad? Reluctance to change unless it suits your means. I suppose you get upset and refuse to use email, online bidding, and CS'ing too because in all of your 21 years you never did that either right? Voting electronically had very little to do with the outcome other than the fact that this was the first time and it was a bit awkward.

I work swing so no I am not on the computer on company time. I will be on my iPad2 though when I get to work playing Words with Friends. Look me up.

the lower classification was a trojan horse by the critics of the all work should be AMT work. Give the union some credit for recognizing all work is never going to be AMT work. The conumdrum than becomes, whether to keep the work in house and provide work for uncertificated AMT's or provide work for certificated AMT's who have little or no experience, making them an asset later on, or let the work go out the door? The other business of cross-utilization, another pig in the poke. Stikerforce is incorrect on that one. The IAM had true industrial seniority where one could move between classifications based on one's seniority. To the best of my memory I know of no AMT in ORD that has been cross-utilized, it would not make good policy to cross-utilize from an AMT position to a lower classification.

 

[strikeforce]

If the TWU gets fewer jobs but higher rates of pay, according to the constitution the Int'l gets a bigger raise. Also, if fewer people get a bigger raise the dues rate is two times your wage per month. Again, more money so membership headcount does not mean more dues. The TWU did not create new clasifications to reap more dues. There are other ways to do that if they wanted to.

UA sick time 75% good at the expense of jobs, benefits for retirees, and pension. Another IGM'er great.

So just because something is new in 21 years it's bad? Reluctance to change unless it suits your means. I suppose you get upset and refuse to use email, online bidding, and CS'ing too because in all of your 21 years you never did that either right? Voting electronically had very little to do with the outcome other than the fact that this was the first time and it was a bit awkward.

I work swing so no I am not on the computer on company time. I will be on my iPad2 though when I get to work playing Words with Friends. Look me up.

Well overspeed, let's face the music.....when other airlines entered BK in 2003 their employees enjoyed top out rates, max vacations and more benefits, so when they took it in the shorts the judge started from the top...on the other hand, when AA enters BK, We already took it in the shorts for 8 years, lost vacations, less benefits, so when the judge starts wiping out wages and benefits, WE will be worse off than our peers at UA, and the other airlines. That 50% for sick time may end up at 25% or No pay, and 2 or 3 less vacation weeks, and less of everything else, plus we will lose OH.

I don't have an issue with electronic voting, e-mail, online bidding and CSing, and I would hope one day the union would use high tech to communicate with it's members.....but the TWU doesn't communicate with it's members electronically, We have to attend union meetings, and even then, WE don't get all of the information. We don't do online bidding, and my point regarding the phone vote showed that the TWU will bend over backwards for the company....even to the point of circumventing their own constitution.

 

[eolesen]

Ok you admitted that APA got partial snapback.....that's all I need on that issue.

Uh, no. They took a pretty big permanent cut, and since the timing needed to implement some of their terms was going to take months vs. days, they took a second cut to make up the difference.

If you want to call that a snapback, go for it.

 

[strikeforce]

the lower classification was a trojan horse by the critics of the all work should be AMT work. Give the union some credit for recognizing all work is never going to be AMT work. The conumdrum than becomes, whether to keep the work in house and provide work for uncertificated AMT's or provide work for certificated AMT's who have little or no experience, making them an asset later on, or let the work go out the door? The other business of cross-utilization, another pig in the poke. Stikerforce is incorrect on that one. The IAM had true industrial seniority where one could move between classifications based on one's seniority. To the best of my memory I know of no AMT in ORD that has been cross-utilized, it would not make good policy to cross-utilize from an AMT position to a lower classification.

AMT's at ORD deiced, now it's fleet.....

 

[Observer]

AMT's at ORD deiced, now it's fleet.....

that is not cross utilization. Going back to the Crandall days and DURING negotiations, Crandall offered that he would grow the airline (which he did) if the union would entertain changes to the contract. Remember at that time cities like JFK, LGA to name 2, amts did not deice aircraft. So the deicing of aircraft was included in the job discription of the FSC. My job security never depended on deicing, although I did deice many, many times. Is it not better to have amts fix airplanes than deicing? Deicing is a spotty job at best, and the need is sporadic.

 

[strikeforce]

the lower classification was a trojan horse by the critics of the all work should be AMT work. Give the union some credit for recognizing all work is never going to be AMT work. The conumdrum than becomes, whether to keep the work in house and provide work for uncertificated AMT's or provide work for certificated AMT's who have little or no experience, making them an asset later on, or let the work go out the door? The other business of cross-utilization, another pig in the poke. Stikerforce is incorrect on that one. The IAM had true industrial seniority where one could move between classifications based on one's seniority. To the best of my memory I know of no AMT in ORD that has been cross-utilized, it would not make good policy to cross-utilize from an AMT position to a lower classification.

You're right it would not make good policy, but AA CAN do it if the need arises per Article 11 (h).

 

[Observer]

You're right it would not make good policy, but AA CAN do it if the need arises per Article 11 (h).

BUT is isn't cross utilization. Just like in the 80s, line mechanics at ORD did fueling because of the shortage of fuelers.

 

[strikeforce]

BUT is isn't cross utilization. Just like in the 80s, line mechanics at ORD did fueling because of the shortage of fuelers.

You better read article 11(h).

 

[eolesen]

Orville and Wilbur are the ones who invented cross-utilization, not the TWU. They were pilots, ground crew, and occasionally, mechanics. And I don't think Charles Taylor would have walked off the job if one of them happened to pick up a wrench...