Negotiating in good faith? APFA Hotline March 3

[Buck]

If the future holds a bankruptcy for Southwest, it will be another example if an airline going there with money in the bank, probably more than $4-$5 billion.

As for the RLA, if it is so antiquated why does labor use it and please explain how it is used in bankruptcy.

 

[Birdman]

If the future holds a bankruptcy for Southwest, it will be another example if an airline going there with money in the bank, probably more than $4-$5 billion.

I don't think a BK filing is culturally possible at WN. They have proven time and time again they can weather the storms of our economy and still make money. All the other airlines can ever hope to do is try and keep up.

 

[700UW]

If the future holds a bankruptcy for Southwest, it will be another example if an airline going there with money in the bank, probably more than $4-$5 billion.

As for the RLA, if it is so antiquated why does labor use it and please explain how it is used in bankruptcy.

Its not used in bankruptcy, bankruptcy code, section 1113 overrides the protections of the RLA, only the railroads are protected under section 1167, the airline represented workers have to follow Section 1113.

US Airways and NW's employees had their CBAs abrogated in their respective bankruptcy cases and were not allowed to seek self-help, this you probably all ready know, so why ask again?

 

[eolesen]

I don't think a BK filing is culturally possible at WN. They have proven time and time again they can weather the storms of our economy and still make money. All the other airlines can ever hope to do is try and keep up.

Considering that ten years ago, the thought of wage concessions was culturally taboo at AA, I wouldn't bank too far on history.

The key difference with WN and everyone else is that historically, their unions are willing to engage senior management in a frank & honest discussion, versus just looking out for the dues/membership (in that order).

At the same time, the number of "stock split millionaires" at WN is shrinking as they retire -- they're in their second or third generation of employees, and the willingess to "show the LUV" may not be as predictable as it has been in the past.

 

[john john]

When I was on the NC for US for the mechanic and related, in the three months we were in Section 1113 negotiations the company never moved off the term sheet. They were very slow on giving our financial people the data requested, and it was often wrong after our people went over it.

Also a lot of information was never received.

We had the same judge in the second filing as in the first.

We even provided a full and comprehensive new CBA that met the "ask" except we would not agree to terminate the pension. We knew the judge would terminate no matter what.

The company in the middle of the night before the court session in the morning where the Judge was going and did abrogate our CBA, gave us a final offer that they were going to present to the court.

We stayed at US headquarters till 4am and they did tweak a few things.

But in reality the company barley moved the judge abrogated our CBA. To keep labor peace he wanted us to vote on it and have the members decide before he would enact the order.

Management at USAirways presented CWA passenger service agents the America West “pay scale” a plan whereby your supervisor decides how much of a raise, if any, you will get, starting at $7.65 an hour and going no higher than $13.10 an hour.
Management broke out a $122 million concessions figure •Pay - $80 million 
•Productivity - $17 million 
•Retirement - $8 million 
•Retiree Medical - $5 million 
•Scope (Contracting Out) - $17 million
CWA USAirways agents and reps voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike or other lawful job action in the event that management imposes concessions through the bankruptcy process without a vote of the employees. US Airways passenger service agents, ratified changes to their contract with US Airways to help the troubled airline as it seeks to emerge from bankruptcy.
A settlement was approved by a 60 percent vote The bargaining committee of local union presidents recommended approval of the settlement, given the carrier's bankruptcy status and the past decision of the bankruptcy judge to allow US Airways to temporarily cut workers' wages by 21 percent and implement further benefit cuts while negotiations continued.
(IAM) backed off of a threat to strike and instead promised to present the company’s final offer to its members for a vote.US Airways said that they would wait until the outcome of the vote, before terminating the contract. employees continue working under a 21 percent pay cut that the judge imposed

 

[damajagua]

Its not used in bankruptcy, bankruptcy code, section 1113 overrides the protections of the RLA, only the railroads are protected under section 1167, the airline represented workers have to follow Section 1113.

US Airways and NW's employees had their CBAs abrogated in their respective bankruptcy cases and were not allowed to seek self-help, this you probably all ready know, so why ask again?

Because most employees at AA are in total denial. A lot of them still think its is the AA of the 80's and 90's.
I hope they don't wake up too late.

 

[700UW]

Management at USAirways presented CWA passenger service agents the America West “pay scale” a plan whereby your supervisor decides how much of a raise, if any, you will get, starting at $7.65 an hour and going no higher than $13.10 an hour.
Management broke out a $122 million concessions figure •Pay - $80 million 
•Productivity - $17 million 
•Retirement - $8 million 
•Retiree Medical - $5 million 
•Scope (Contracting Out) - $17 million
CWA USAirways agents and reps voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike or other lawful job action in the event that management imposes concessions through the bankruptcy process without a vote of the employees. US Airways passenger service agents, ratified changes to their contract with US Airways to help the troubled airline as it seeks to emerge from bankruptcy.
A settlement was approved by a 60 percent vote The bargaining committee of local union presidents recommended approval of the settlement, given the carrier's bankruptcy status and the past decision of the bankruptcy judge to allow US Airways to temporarily cut workers' wages by 21 percent and implement further benefit cuts while negotiations continued.
(IAM) backed off of a threat to strike and instead promised to present the company’s final offer to its members for a vote.US Airways said that they would wait until the outcome of the vote, before terminating the contract. employees continue working under a 21 percent pay cut that the judge imposed

Ah the master of copy and paste strikes again, lol.

Why dont you post the fact the no union that has had a CBA abrogation under the Section 1113 was allowed to seek self-help under the RLA. Your posting misinformation once again.

Read this

With no agreement in sight, the Second Circuit issued an opinion on March 29, 2007 affirming the district court’s strike injunction. The court of appeals held that AFA had not sufficiently pursued the RLA’s dispute resolution processes and that any strike now would violate the union’s duty under §2 (First) of the RLA to make every reasonable effort to reach a new agreement. In re Northwest Airlines Corp., 483 F.3d 160 (2d Cir. 2007). Importantly, the appellate court held that Northwest did not breach the CBA when it rejected the agreement, but rather by following the §1113 process to its conclusion had “abrogated” the agreement, after which the CBA ceased to exist.

The union, disinclined to accept the Second Circuit’s decision, announced in early April that it would seek review in the Supreme Court. Meanwhile in the bankruptcy court, Northwest seized on the court of appeals “abrogation” analysis to argue that the AFA’s claim for more than $1 billion in rejection damages must be thrown out. At the same time, the AFA asked Judge Gropper to reconsider his June 29, 2006 decision authorizing Northwest to reject the flight attendants’ CBA. On April 13, 2007, the bankruptcy court issued a decision following the Second Circuit’s analysis and holding that a union has no claim for damages when a debtor rejects the CBA pursuant to a bankruptcy court‘s order under §1113. Judge Gropper also denied the union’s request for reconsideration.

Court Blocks Northwest FA Strike Efforts For Good

The courts have spoken... there will be no strike by flight attendants at Northwest Airlines, period. US District Court Judge Victor Marrero overturned an earlier bankruptcy court decision Friday, and granted Northwest's request for a preliminary injunction to prevent a threatened strike or work action by the company's flight attendants, represented by the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA (AFA).

Your so called strike vote at US was meaningless and wasnt worth a thing. Keep posting CWA cheerleading posts, just like you are doing at AA, why dont you come up with real information and your own instead of posting CWA scripts.

Dont blow smoke up the agents and the rest of our rear ends.

 

[john john]

Your so called strike vote at US was meaningless and wasnt worth a thing.

Without a strike vote at the bargaining table the outcome would have been worse
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jan2005/air-j12.shtml
US Airways is seeking the elimination of 2,000 mechanics, stock clerks, cleaners and other ground personnel, according to a copy of the documents detailing the proposal obtained by the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. Of 848 airplane cleaners, 798 would lose their jobs, while the remaining 50 cleaners would have their pay cut by 15 percent. The number of mechanics would be cut from almost 3,000 to 1,800 and suffer an 8 percent pay cut. Stock clerks would be cut from 400 to 268 and their pay cut 15 percent.

 

[700UW]

Were you at CCY?

Were you on the CWA negotiating committee?

I was at CCY, we met the your committee numerous times, your stike vote did nothing, your union met the ask and thats all the company wanted.

Ask PIT res, ask baggage service and FF workers who's jobs went to the Philippines and El Salvador how it worked out for them?

How is the pension?

Oh wait, you dont have one and couldnt achieve one.

How did the post merger negotiations go?

Wait, the IBT and CWA caved as US wanted a vote and your union was scared.

How many jobs were lost and how many came back?

The IAM has a pension, and now 50% of overhaul has to be done inhouse, so the IAM has gained, and you havent.

All ready in negotiations for a second post merger CBA, got the holidays and sick time back.

Your still working under your Chapter 11 CBA.

Glad to see you cant address the legal issues and facts I have posted and you still post the CWA cheer leading scripts.

 

[Buck]

Its not used in bankruptcy, bankruptcy code, section 1113 overrides the protections of the RLA, only the railroads are protected under section 1167, the airline represented workers have to follow Section 1113.

US Airways and NW's employees had their CBAs abrogated in their respective bankruptcy cases and were not allowed to seek self-help, this you probably all ready know, so why ask again?

Yes, but again you are comparing AA to others who had contracts abrogated. Surely you do not believe that the union(s) are going to allow the judge to impose a contract. The judge will intercede only if an agreement is reached that does not place AMR in the black.


You also indicate that you are sure that the RLA does not apply. Are suggesting that his honor will not review all law to come to a decision in favor of the company?

Is it not self-help to force a decision in the court?

 

[Buck]

Can we get back at least to American Airlines?

 

[john john]

Were you at CCY?

Nope but this was
http://web.archive.org/web/20041030113039/www.cwa.net/PDFs/Management10-22-04proposal.pdf
http://web.archive.org/web/20041013063944/www.cwa.net/PDFs/ManagementProposal.pdf

 

[Hackman]

Considering that ten years ago, the thought of wage concessions was culturally taboo at AA, I wouldn't bank too far on history.

The key difference with WN and everyone else is that historically, their unions are willing to engage senior management in a frank & honest discussion, versus just looking out for the dues/membership (in that order).

At the same time, the number of "stock split millionaires" at WN is shrinking as they retire -- they're in their second or third generation of employees, and the willingess to "show the LUV" may not be as predictable as it has been in the past.

Wage concessions taboo? With the Twu? Surely, your not serious. Started the first "B" scale in 1983, started the SRP program in 1995 where the mechanic starting wage was brought down to about $7.00 hr? That's just scratching the surface. You must be talking about the APFA or the APA maybe, not the low wage concession leader, the Twu.

The key difference is the WN unions are willing to engage upper management???? Frank and honest discussion??? That's a hearty Is that because the WN workers are not continuously lied to??? or possibly.... the WN management might actually listen to what the workers tell them??? Or maybe WN management shows it's work force an ounce of respect??? WN management I guess doesn't regard them as "Bricks in a Backpack". AA management regards it's work force as "cost units".... and less.

The Twu won a "Labor/Management Relations" award in 2007 for it's "frank and honest" discussions" with AA senior management called "Working Together". Or what others called it: A complete F'n circle jerk with the Twu's Dennis Burdchette (now AA management) giving the reach around. It worked out oh so well, those Pajama Parties. Another Boston Consulting Group failure???

"Last August, AA senior management and leaders from the Twu met to discuss the vision for the future of the Maintenance and Engineering Group. The vision was based on four collaborative "breakthrough goals" developed by AA's three heavy MRO bases and line maintenance organizations, totaling in $1BILLLION in value creation at the three bases. The overall vision vision is to become a "world class MRO that provides value to our people, customers, and owners."

Here's the link; http://atwonline.com/operations-maintenance/article/atws-2007-labor-management-relations-award-0309

So I would strongly disagree with your assessment. AA management has done nothing by lie and stonewall for years, so "engaging senior management" is nothing but a waste of time. Just like what is currently occurring in bankruptcy NON-negotiations with it's "cost unit" union representatives,

Ok, let that AA consultant spin fly.....

 

[Buck]

Or could it be that the company has full control over the TWU?

Perhaps if the mechanics were to negotiate completely separate from the other Title groups then wage concessions over time would be less frequent.

 

[700UW]

Yes, but again you are comparing AA to others who had contracts abrogated. Surely you do not believe that the union(s) are going to allow the judge to impose a contract. The judge will intercede only if an agreement is reached that does not place AMR in the black.


You also indicate that you are sure that the RLA does not apply. Are suggesting that his honor will not review all law to come to a decision in favor of the company?

Is it not self-help to force a decision in the court?

Wrong again.

The judge only rules on the motions put forth to the court. AA has all ready filed a Section 1113 motion with the court. If both parties fail to reach an agreement a hearing will be scheduled and more than likely your CBA will be abrogated.

The unions basically dont have any power in this situation.

Nope but this was
http://web.archive.org/web/20041030113039/www.cwa.net/PDFs/Management10-22-04proposal.pdf
http://web.archive.org/web/20041013063944/www.cwa.net/PDFs/ManagementProposal.pdf

And to John John, are you going to ignore the facts and questions asked?

Oh wait, you cant find a CWA cheer leading script to copy and paste?