Negotiating in good faith? APFA Hotline March 3

[Buck]

None of you on this thread seem to understand that this all started as a result of deregulation...it is a testament to the strength of AA that you are now the last so called legacy airline to file to restructure...your restructuring will take place with you or without you. The industry is finally coming to grips with deregulation. Take solace in knowing that once you are through with the sacrifices imposed upon you you will be well positioned along with the all of the rest of the remaining airlines to put Southwest to bed once and for all as mentioned in the southwest CEO's letter to employees. The rest of the industry awaits AA to take their lumps and get on with the business of competing head to toe with Southwest. The employees at WN had better realize that their turn in the barrel is coming.

I understand, but I do not believe the union does not.(twu) .

The old style unionism is out of sync with time. Unionism is going to have to adapt or face extinction.

 

[TWU informer]

None of you on this thread seem to understand that this all started as a result of deregulation...it is a testament to the strength of AA that you are now the last so called legacy airline to file to restructure...your restructuring will take place with you or without you. The industry is finally coming to grips with deregulation. Take solace in knowing that once you are through with the sacrifices imposed upon you you will be well positioned along with the all of the rest of the remaining airlines to put Southwest to bed once and for all as mentioned in the southwest CEO's letter to employees. The rest of the industry awaits AA to take their lumps and get on with the business of competing head to toe with Southwest. The employees at WN had better realize that their turn in the barrel is coming.

Southwest will just go C11 also and match or beat with a new cost structure. Then the others will do the same and merry-gp-round of employee decimation will continue. Nobody is gaining strength or an advantage in the industry because the weak continue and the game never changes.

The laws along with the corporate welfare sytem to prop up job death of this country creates a hybrid form of economic system, not true capitalism, not socialism but a hybrid destruction of employee pay and benefits, destruction of US jobs, and the infamous lining of silver in the Executives pockets.

Great Isn't It?

 

[butchord45]

my thoughts exactly.......APFA negotiators kept beating "restore and more" drumbeat......then the " i won't bring the union a concessionary TA".......so how much negotiating was the APFA actually doing in many years of negotiations?????? Now the company chooses to stonewall.....and APFA goes crying to Daddy.....they won't negotiate with us......WHAA WHAA WHAA!!!!! Just a bunch of children screwing around with our livelihoods!!!

Know when to cut your losses!!! Know when it's best to retreat and fight for another day!!! Know when you have leverage ....and know when you don't!!.....OOPS!!! too late for that!!

Was not American Airlines offering a better deal than the term sheet in each work groups pre C11 filing negotiations?

Were they not telling us they would file C11 if they could not get the cost reductions voluntarily?

My point is I don't like where we are any better than the next guy, but AA did offer each of us a better deal then than they are offering now.

Correct? I mean this sucks but we did have an alternative.

 

[eolesen]

how much negotiating was the APFA actually doing in many years of negotiations??????

Yep. And that's essentially what the NMB mediator told you guys when they put mediated talks on ice, but everyone assumed it was the company who was being difficult...

 

[jersey777]

Yep. And that's essentially what the NMB mediator told you guys when they put mediated talks on ice, but everyone assumed it was the company who was being difficult...

Yeah right. Like you were there.

 

[TWU informer]

Yep. And that's essentially what the NMB mediator told you guys when they put mediated talks on ice, but everyone assumed it was the company who was being difficult...

I still like the idea of getting clarification of which law trumps.
Railway Labor Act or C11-sec1113

I say Railway Labor Act

 

[fltguymk]

Yep. And that's essentially what the NMB mediator told you guys when they put mediated talks on ice, but everyone assumed it was the company who was being difficult...

You know what they say about people who "assume" things! You ought to be served some delicious brownies from Aluminum Lady on your next AA flight!

 

[ord78]

Yep. And that's essentially what the NMB mediator told you guys when they put mediated talks on ice, but everyone assumed it was the company who was being difficult...

yup..not only were some people actual there in the room with the nmb when they made that decision they also know how everything is going to turn out, everywhere for all time...

 

[ord78]

I still like the idea of getting clarification of which law trumps.
Railway Labor Act or C11-sec1113

I say Railway Labor Act

twu..do you mean the same clarification the apa suit is seeking? or is this something else you're referring to?

 

[Buck]

I still like the idea of getting clarification of which law trumps.
Railway Labor Act or C11-sec1113

I say Railway Labor Act

I hope you are correct, as the judge is there not to make law but to interpret the law. Which as a country we have had a problem lately.

 

[AA89]

Southwest will just go C11 also and match or beat with a new cost structure. Then the others will do the same and merry-gp-round of employee decimation will continue. Nobody is gaining strength or an advantage in the industry because the weak continue and the game never changes.

The laws along with the corporate welfare sytem to prop up job death of this country creates a hybrid form of economic system, not true capitalism, not socialism but a hybrid destruction of employee pay and benefits, destruction of US jobs, and the infamous lining of silver in the Executives pockets.

Great Isn't It?

Well said. It is a race to the bottom for the middle class and it is happening just slow enough that most don't even notice. Even though some recognize it all we do is occupy parks or in our case walk around the terminals with posters. Even then the public could care less. Maybe in another generation we will have the guts to do what the people in the middle east have done and stop with the games.
Capitalism mixed with greed is as big a threat to this country than any enemy outside and we allow it.

 

[ord78]

Calling all APFA historians here...

I came on in 1978 and voted on the first contract apfa negotiated. What i want to determine is the cumulative amount of time, probably in excess of 10 years, that has transpired between the expiration of each contract and the date the subsequent contract was ratified. I f anyone knows this info upfront please speak up. I've contacted apfa for help today and am awaiting a response.
thanks

 

[xUT]

Southwest will just go C11 also and match or beat with a new cost structure. Then the others will do the same and merry-gp-round of employee decimation will continue. Nobody is gaining strength or an advantage in the industry because the weak continue and the game never changes.

The laws along with the corporate welfare sytem to prop up job death of this country creates a hybrid form of economic system, not true capitalism, not socialism but a hybrid destruction of employee pay and benefits, destruction of US jobs, and the infamous lining of silver in the Executives pockets.

Great Isn't It?

IMHO, well stated!
All the legacies have been beaten back to compete with LUV as there is over capacity and LUV set the industry standard/price point. The most logical conclusion was for one or more of the legacies to liquidate and reduce/remove over capacity. After the AA BK, legacies will be on par/lower than LUV while offering equal/better service.

After LUV restructures, then the round-robin game will continue.

All the while, 'someone' is making money, just not us.

Best Regards,
B) xUT

 

[eolesen]

Calling all APFA historians here...

I came on in 1978 and voted on the first contract apfa negotiated. What i want to determine is the cumulative amount of time, probably in excess of 10 years, that has transpired between the expiration of each contract and the date the subsequent contract was ratified. I f anyone knows this info upfront please speak up. I've contacted apfa for help today and am awaiting a response.
thanks

Good luck... the norm across the industry has moving outward over the past 20-25 years.

In 1990, I believe 24 months was the average; the last round of renewals was closer to 36 months. Lots of noise in the data, though, thanks to the bankruptcy filings at US, DL, NW, and UA.

The speed of how fast a contract is resolved lies more with where the economy is than anything else, though... you can't compare something negotiated in the 1997-2000 because airlines were posting profits and it is always harder to say "no" when you're making money, or when you're looking to catch the wave of RJ's and therefore need to pay off the unions. The 1990-1993 timeframe was much harder for negotiations, thanks to the post Gulf War II recession, multiple bankruptcies (PA, EA, BN, ML)...

 

[700UW]

The RLA is the most antiquated labor law.

It was enacted to protect interstate commerce and not workers. The workers protections were added to stop the numerous wildcat railroad strikes.

It was written in 1926, and modified later to add the airlines.

Both sides use it to their advantage but it definitely favors companies than workers.