APFA Hotline regarding early out.

[FWAAA]

The unions paint the Company's term sheets as draconian. Vocal employees claim that hundreds (if not thousands) are preparing to retire. If any of that is true, then involuntary furloughs should be mitigated by all the retirements.

Can't blame the unions for trying to get $50k to $100k or more as an early-out incentive, but if employees are fleeing like rats from a sinking ship, management would never offer tens of millions or hundreds of millions as a going-away gift if people are leaving without it. On top of that, the creditors committee (other than the three unions) would scream bloody murder to such a cash giveaway.

There's more than one way to get senior people to leave; one way is via an early out incentive. Another way is to make staying so undesirable. Looks like AA has chosen the latter approach. And if not enough people leave on their own, that's some evidence that management didn't go far enough in cutting pay, benefits and workrules.

 

[jersey777]

Good faith is a double-edged sword. Just look at some of the rhetoric in this forum - restore and more, retro pay increases, etc. Wanting back what was previously given up when the company you work for is still losing money won't get you anywhere with the NMB. If the NMB mediator is convinced that AA's offer of A is reasonable and justifiable, the union's proposals of B, B1, B2...aren't in good faith. Unrealistic demands by either side can constitute bad faith bargaining. If it's the union side, you don't get released.

Despite whatever you think the law requires, an impasse is when the two sides are close enough that in the opinion of the mediator an agreement can be reached and neither side will give any more to reach that agreement.

Jim

You have no idea what was going on at the apfa bargaining table. "Restore and more" was a campaign slogan in 2008 for Laura Glading and was used because we all thought that the executives of this company knew what they were doing....at each losing quarter they kept on coming up with something new from their sleeve.....wasn't getting ATI supposed to bring us loads of new business and put us in the black? That slogan was not used once after the campaign and negotiations started. In fact, I personally spoke to an APFA negotiator at a roadshow and he told me specifics that weren't public about about what was offered by the APFA. The union was willing to increase the duty month, increase insurance, drop the pensions for new hires amongst many other scheduling efficiencies. The fact is that the company wanted what they wanted and never compromised. Those are the facts so quit with the idea that you know what you are talking about......you were not there!

 

[FWAAA]

You have no idea what was going on at the apfa bargaining table. "Restore and more" was a campaign slogan in 2008 for Laura Glading and was used because we all thought that the executives of this company knew what they were doing....at each losing quarter they kept on coming up with something new from their sleeve.....wasn't getting ATI supposed to bring us loads of new business and put us in the black? That slogan was not used once after the campaign and negotiations started. In fact, I personally spoke to an APFA negotiator at a roadshow and he told me specifics that weren't public about about what was offered by the APFA. The union was willing to increase the duty month, increase insurance, drop the pensions for new hires amongst many other scheduling efficiencies. The fact is that the company wanted what the wanted and never compromised. Those are the facts so quit with the idea that you know what you are talking about......you were not there!

AA's mainline revenue was $1.2 billion more in 2011 than in 2010 and total AMR revenue was up by $1.8 billion. For all we know, the increased revenue from the AA/BA/IB and AA/JAL ATI joint ventures is working.

Unfortunately, fuel was up by $1.9 billion. ATI was necessary to place AA on the same revenue playing field enjoyed by UA and DL for many years - but nobody claimed it would make up for labor costs that were far higher than at UA or DL. Huge management failure was thinking that other airlines' labor costs would catch up or surpass AA's costs. That hasn't happened.

 

[ord78]

The unions paint the Company's term sheets as draconian. Vocal employees claim that hundreds (if not thousands) are preparing to retire. If any of that is true, then involuntary furloughs should be mitigated by all the retirements.

Can't blame the unions for trying to get $50k to $100k or more as an early-out incentive, but if employees are fleeing like rats from a sinking ship, management would never offer tens of millions or hundreds of millions as a going-away gift if people are leaving without it. On top of that, the creditors committee (other than the three unions) would scream bloody murder to such a cash giveaway.

There's more than one way to get senior people to leave; one way is via an early out incentive. Another way is to make staying so undesirable. Looks like AA has chosen the latter approach. And if not enough people leave on their own, that's some evidence that management didn't go far enough in cutting pay, benefits and workrules.

If this is a strategy it is failed one before it even begins for the simple reason the product, no matter how well designed or how well received as such by the amr bod, will fall on its' face. If the working environment is made so bad, pay, work rules etc. there is no way a 'superior' product can ever be delivered by either new hires or those of us that stay.

And it is very foolhardy position for management to take to assume that they know what they're doing in all of this. This is new ground for everyone here despite the bravado from management that they somehow know exactly how to go through this gut wrenching process and succeed at it. Just as unions, including mine, over reach from time to time so does the management team. In their zeal to become lowest cost, read union pay/work rules, they could very well end up spurning the very source of ALL of our income, the passenger. And once the high yield passenger leaves its' impossible to get them back, game over.

In the end this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. A completely pissed off workforce in the end translates into a completely pissed off customer and a completely pissed off passenger WILL go elsewhere and there goes your revenue.

 

[WorldTraveler]

And, exactly what is the source of your information. Why the hell do you think the union is so put out with the NMB for not releasing us into self-help years ago? Over the past 8 years the company has put forth almost no effort in "trying to negotiate." The only one "trying to negotiate w/o success" is the union. There were times when the company did not even bother to show up to scheduled sessions, nor did they give the union even the courtesy of saying they weren't coming.

Since this entire drama has been playing out for almost ten years not just on forums like this where there is plenty of information but also in the press - and even on some billboards in the US - what is going on at AA has not exactly been a deep dark family secret.
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While every one of us would like to believe AA's story (and that of its employees) would end differently, no one could realistically believe it would given that AA is the last network carrier to file for BK... history is full of examples of how labor was rendered powerless... and yet some thought the outcome this time would be different?
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And, ORD, it is equally hard to believe that AA mgmt thinks they can continue to run roughshod over labor and have them spring back and serve customers.... on top of the fact that AA's competitors continue to swoop in on the key revenue which has long been a backbone of AA's business model.
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I'm not sure how it will end up more than anyone else... but the longer this all continues w/o some sort of even halfway amicable resolution, the less anyone can believe that this is going to all work out like AA thinks it will.

 

[strikeforce]

Just as unions, including mine, over reach from time to time so does the management team. In their zeal to become lowest cost, read union pay/work rules, they could very well end up spurning the very source of ALL of our income, the passenger. And once the high yield passenger leaves its' impossible to get them back, game over.

In the end this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. A completely pissed off workforce in the end translates into a completely pissed off customer and a completely pissed off passenger WILL go elsewhere and there goes your revenue.

The workforce has been pissed off for 9 years! The company knows that.....but, they don't care!

They are either STUPID or MORONS.......

 

[ord78]

The workforce has been pissed off for 9 years! The company knows that.....but, they don't care!

They are either STUPID or MORONS.......

...how about BOTH stupid and moronic..

 

[amt66]

...how about BOTH stupid and moronic..

Lets not forget arrogant! They will continue to step all over us until we take a stand!! We must like it since no one is heading for the doors!,,,

 

[Rogallo]

Lets not forget arrogant! They will continue to step all over us until we take a stand!! We must like it since no one is heading for the doors!,,,

Slugs can't stand. They have no spine!!

 

[strikeforce]

Lets not forget arrogant! They will continue to step all over us until we take a stand!! We must like it since no one is heading for the doors!,,,

there are LOTS of people actively looking to leave, and those employees have at least 15-20 years with AA! It's real sad when a company drives REAL talented mechanics to it's competitors. YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!!

 

[TWU informer]

there are LOTS of people actively looking to leave, and those employees have at least 15-20 years with AA! It's real sad when a company drives REAL talented mechanics to it's competitors. YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!!

At least that removes some of the burn the place down mechanics, but what about the rest that will still be left?
Will they use a match or a flame thrower?

 

[bluebird]

"Last week APFA as well as TWU and APA requested binding arbitration from the NMB." APFA

Think the process is getting anywhere?