Negotiating in good faith? APFA Hotline March 3

[700UW]

For the 1,000,000 time the would have filed anyway, dont you get that?

 

[TWU informer]

For the 1,000,000 time the would have filed anyway, dont you get that?

And so professor "BIG I", how does that change the fact that during negotiations we were all offered a better alternative than we are looking at today?

 

[Zom JFK]

This company has such a disconnect and mistrust.....not only in management and labor....but in themselves....hence in finding solutions by hiring so many outside consulting groups.....Ceo asked by the board to step down....etc...etc... I see this even down to the lowest supervisor Crew Chief relationship to all the way up the chain to the CEO's....Supervisor back stabbing supervisor....there is absolutely no accountability in this company anywhere......top management getting bonuses even tho bad decissions and failures run rampant.....supervisors getting promoted to managers not by merit but by buddy systems......this has gone on for years and years and now is finally catching up with us.......it is and always has been a every man/woman for themselves mentality when no-one is held to the fire when knuckle headed decissions are made.....this has been born and bread into the system from the top and filters down to the lowest management position or Union employee.

With leadership comes acountability.....there is none, zero accountability at American only figure heads.....empty suits......leaders stand up and admit mistakes.....they dont blame the people who dont make the decisions and have no power......we get the marching orders by the top guys, and then we march. Management doesnt listen to the front line soldiers us.....they mistrust us so much they hire outside consultants....Boston consulting group etc. when if they would listen,.....actually get out of the office.....walk around a bit....open their ears....but they sit in there Ivory tower at centreport attending meetings when answers are in the people that have a much bigger stake in the game on the floor...... In the military, no matter what, the success or failure of a squadron or the unit is ultimately on the shoulder of the Commanding Officer.....there are no excuses....if you dont know......its your responsibility to know.....If we were a Military unit many of our Commanding Officers (CEO'S) would be relieved of their Commands in disgrace for this very lack of Leadership and lack of accountabilities......blaming your soldiers for your battle plan....which were carried out to the letter....is absolutely disgraceful.

Great post. I couldn't agree more.

 

[nbmcg01]

Hey Sport, who ties your shoes in the morning?

I hardly think abrogating 40 years of contractual improvements and not will to discuss compromise can be considered "bargaining in good faith". Too many employers have been able to use BK as a means of abrogating contracts that were signed off on by BOTH parties. Personally, I would LOVE to abrogate the terms of senior mangts. terms of employment. Turn about is fair play.

 

[Buck]

I hardly think abrogating 40 years of contractual improvements and not will to discuss compromise can be considered "bargaining in good faith". Too many employers have been able to use BK as a means of abrogating contracts that were signed off on by BOTH parties. Personally, I would LOVE to abrogate the terms of senior mangts. terms of employment. Turn about is fair play.

I know you didn't mean to include the TWU in your 40 year statement.

 

[ord78]

For the 1,000,000 time the would have filed anyway, dont you get that?

So if i understand correctly then coming to agreement under the 'normal' scenario, as has been done like 100 times before, was never a consideration for the company? Really? Do you really think they think this way? This is the nut of the problem right here...threatening a c-11 as a bargaining tool may have been useful in previous airline bankruptcies but i'm not so sure it is anymore. The political climate alone is vastly different than when UA, DL or NW did theirs. If that's the thinking then it's a crystal clear case of not bargaining in good faith with any of the 3 major unions. Period. No way to spin that differently no matter how much your paying a wall street bankruptcy firm.

I can't speak for apa or twu but i do know that we are faxing and calling like crazy over this. There are a great more labor friendly folks in office both state and federal than we've had in a good long time. If there ever was a chance to change the RLA and it's abuse by management, now is the time. Perhaps the apa suit alone is just the beginning but even if that is shot down we will not stop. This is life or death for so many. How many families will be destroyed by this? How many college educations down the crapper? How many divorces? How many more home foreclosures?

I distinctly remember dozens of my coworkers saying our strike in '93 would collapse in our face. We stood together and stood strong and a window in centerport was taken out by a flying chair, or so rumor had it. The odds were way against us then, the odds are way against now but is that a reason to just sit back and watch it happen? I think not.

So i would ask all that are sitting there doing nothing to get off your duff, write a couple of letters and fax them in to your reps. Then follow up with a call, and then another call and another fax.... and don't bother with snail mail. It takes weeks for snail mail to get into the hands of the reps or senators these days because of the anthrax screening process.

If you don't stand up for something you will fall for anything.

 

[eolesen]

Was not American Airlines offering a better deal than the term sheet in each work groups pre C11 filing negotiations?

Yes, they were. But apparently there was still money left on the table.

Were they not telling us they would file C11 if they could not get the cost reductions voluntarily?

Yes, they were.

My point is I don't like where we are any better than the next guy, but AA did offer each of us a better deal then than they are offering now.

Yep. And it turns out that perhaps Bob Owens may have been right about there still being money left on the table. Unfortunately, it was the company who left money on the table, and now they've taken it back.

Because anyone who post any truth about our own ignorance in this affair must be attacked, made fun of, and called names.

or accused of being a paid shill...

So if i understand correctly then coming to agreement under the 'normal' scenario, as has been done like 100 times before, was never a consideration for the company? Really? Do you really think they think this way? This is the nut of the problem right here...threatening a c-11 as a bargaining tool may have been useful in previous airline bankruptcies but i'm not so sure it is anymore.

So much misinformation... so little time.

AA let it be known what would and wouldn't work. The unions were pretty much in denial, and apparently still are.

Lots of people not employed by AMR saw the clouds on the horizon and the risk for C-11 filing. I'd expected one for at least two years prior to it happening, and it wasn't just because of labor.

We stood together and stood strong and a window in centerport was taken out by a flying chair, or so rumor had it.

A great galley myth, but absolutely no truth behind it. For starters, Crandall's conference room didn't have windows. At the time, none of the conference rooms on 6N did. For closers, the guys I knew in Facilities Maintenance at HDQ said it was all BS. (cue up the next conspiracy, which would be that a bunch of TWU guys would be able to cover something like that up for 20 years...)

 

[Buck]

"Yes, they were. But apparently there was still money left on the table."



If there is money left on the table there must have been room to find agreements in area besides those the union wanted.

At times I wonder why the union seems to cut it's own throat. If wages were not an option and work rules were a possibility, at least in base maintenance positions like 7 day coverage were going to happen either way. Why not use the money left in the table to negotiate in your favor. Per the term sheet for M&R, wages were not going to be cut. Is it not possible to gain some form of working conditions such retraining programs for the jobs that are going out the door, to try and keep some employees here

 

[ord78]

So much misinformation... so little time.

AA let it be known what would and wouldn't work. The unions were pretty much in denial, and apparently still are.

Lots of people not employed by AMR saw the clouds on the horizon and the risk for C-11 filing. I'd expected one for at least two years prior to it happening, and it wasn't just because of labor.

And to what are you referring to as to misinformation? I've been reading this blog for a few years now and have only just recently begun to post because i did not want to get into a pissing match. And half of what i read here is just that... so i'm not going to engage on this. I'm sure the cv's of many posters here read like something out of wharton but that does not mean the truth can only be known by a few. The truth is not subjective, it is objective.

Belittle all you like.

 

[ord78]

So much misinformation... so little time.

My previous post was incorrect

And to what are you referring to as to misinformation? I've been reading this blog for a few years now and have only just recently begun to post because i did not want to get into a pissing match. And half of what i read here is just that... so i'm not going to engage on this. I'm sure the cv's of many posters here read like something out of wharton but that does not mean the truth can only be known by a few. The truth is not subjective, it is objective.

Belittle all you like.

 

[exs]

Was not American Airlines offering a better deal than the term sheet in each work groups pre C11 filing negotiations?

Were they not telling us they would file C11 if they could not get the cost reductions voluntarily?

My point is I don't like where we are any better than the next guy, but AA did offer each of us a better deal then than they are offering now.

Correct? I mean this sucks but we did have an alternative.

Alternative? what alternative? They shafted us in 2003, Share the Pain, Share the Gain! What were the alternatives then? C11!... Don't you see the pattern, they low balled us in negotiations for 4 years, knowing the members would turn it down, which led us to C11, so they say and now they low balled us again in C11 knowing we would turn it down again and take it to the judge. How do you know that if we voted yes that the company would of taken away all of the CBA from you anyway? That's right, no ones knows. Why would you believe anything this company would say to you? they have been lying to you and me for years, Why do you give them so much credit? I just do not get it.

 

[TWU informer]

Alternative? what alternative? They shafted us in 2003, Share the Pain, Share the Gain! What were the alternatives then? C11!... Don't you see the pattern, they low balled us in negotiations for 4 years, knowing the members would turn it down, which led us to C11, so they say and now they low balled us again in C11 knowing we would turn it down again and take it to the judge. How do you know that if we voted yes that the company would of taken away all of the CBA from you anyway? That's right, no ones knows. Why would you believe anything this company would say to you? they have been lying to you and me for years, Why do you give them so much credit? I just do not get it.

It is simple for me. I voted on a T/A that was better than where we are now. You were also offered something better than you will see now!
That is truthful facts.

Of course the professional speculators have differing opinions and that is fine.

But am I simply talking about known facts.

 

[Buck]

My fear is that those facts and I believe that they are, will cause the APFA to make a dangerous move, whatever that may be. But the TWU will demand the same and will not able to back up that position, whether it is self-help or letting the judge decide.

 

[johnny kat]

None of you on this thread seem to understand that this all started as a result of deregulation...it is a testament to the strength of AA that you are now the last so called legacy airline to file to restructure...your restructuring will take place with you or without you. The industry is finally coming to grips with deregulation. Take solace in knowing that once you are through with the sacrifices imposed upon you you will be well positioned along with the all of the rest of the remaining airlines to put Southwest to bed once and for all as mentioned in the southwest CEO's letter to employees. The rest of the industry awaits AA to take their lumps and get on with the business of competing head to toe with Southwest. The employees at WN had better realize that their turn in the barrel is coming.

 

[ord78]

The APFA never got to the t/a position to begin with, so who knows what that would have looked like. I don't think we'd make a move now for self help should we even get to the point where that is an option. It would be suicidal to strike in this environment and everyone knows that. But if it comes down to voting in a pure crappola contract or letting the judge have at it, i really don't know how our membership would vote.