APFA Hotline regarding early out.

[eolesen]

The union, of course, was going to ask for the moon the first time. Who wouldn't?

Perhaps, but as I said, this is not a normal bargaining sequence. There aren't years to go back and forth with "Super Bowl Sunday" provisions.

This is speed dating. As bad as it seems, what the company proposed on the term sheets isn't too far off the center of what exists within the peer group, and good faith means coming in with realistic positions, not pie in the sky to whittle down.

And again, Dave, if AA is paying me to be here, then they're about a decade behind in their payments... I have no doubt that there are some people paid to be on the forums, but they're on the CWA and TWU payroll. AA hardly acknowledges that social media even exists, much less participates on it. Their Flywrtalk, Twitter and Facebook presence is apparently outsourced to Weber-Shandwick, so what makes you think they'd bother with paying off former employees who they have no editorial control over?...

 

[fltguymk]

The company has yet to reveal it's cost analysis to the unions for it's proposed terms.... Until then, nothing is really going to give.... They are not bargaining in good faith. Let's take it to the judge!

 

[WorldTraveler]

E's assessment of the nature of the present negotiations is accurate - and after 8 years of trying to negotiate w/o success, AA is in a pretty good position to argue to the judge that they have tried everything possible to negotiate cuts.
The judge, once again, will not pick sides... he simply will say whether the collective bargaining process should be trumped by BK rules to allow the company to dramatically reduce costs.
Yes, AA probably will be one of the first carriers to fail to negotiate contracts with its people in BK but AA's unions for years have failed to grasp that this process could end right where it is about to end. It is very hard to watch but history is littered with examples of airline employees who thought they could stand up to management and were ultimately steamrolled in the process. Thus, it isn't surprising that AA tried to use EA's example for what could happen.
.
Yes, Jim, if AA ends up w/ FAs that are all at TOS by the time they exit BK, then there is little ability for them to really bring costs down over the long term after they get the initial benefit from benefit and productivity cuts. Their choice either is to outsource more and more flying or they once again have costs that are too high for them to be able to compete w/ other carriers who continue to bring in lower paid new hire employees who not only have lower benefit costs but also lower salary costs.
.
Thus, you have to wonder how NOT offering a buyout - not necessarily that costs $50K and up per employee - but ANYTHING more than a pink slip will result in them being able to reach their goal of getting labor costs to competitive levels.
.
I hope that regardless of what happens w/ your personal situation, Jim, you remain interested in the industry and active on this forum.

 

[TWU informer]

Year 2013 American Airlines Theme Song

I FLEW into a burnin' ring of fire

I went down, down, down,

And the flames went higher,

And it burns, burn, burns,

The ring of fire, the ring of fire.

The ring of fire

 

[Buck]

Year 2013 American Airlines Theme Song

I FLEW into a burnin' ring of fire

I went down, down, down,

And the flames went higher,

And it burns, burn, burns,

The ring of fire, the ring of fire.

The ring of fire

Today is Johnny Cash's birthday!

 

[cf6mech]

Gotta love the spin, though. Can't remember the last time APFA or APA did something "just to be nice" to the company.

ARE YOU ON CRACK ? How about what we all did for the company in 2003,...... your really out of touch sir!..... We all gave back a ton to the company.....intrusting the knuckle heads at the top to do the right thing by us with those concessions......to make the right decissions......to not spit in our faces with bonuses even though they may have been contractual......we all.....APFA/APA and TWU did something very "NICE" that we shouldnt of done in 2003 now in hindsight.....what a bone headed statement........sorry.

 

[cf6mech]

I think the general feeling is that if this is going to be one-sided come hell or high water event, then there is plenty of time for BS proposals, because the entire process is nothing more than BS to begin with. Again, beware of the employees with matches seeking a burning. Never under estimate that they exist, Eastern Airlines showed what happens in this kind of enviorment. Interesting that AA Management showed everyone on the Tulsa Maintenance base the "Collision Course" Video about Eastern. Maybe that was required for training reasons, instead of a fear mongering tool? Since you are paid to be here, the burning will have a negative impact on you too. Welcome to the hard facts, that you seem to ignore. I can see the day you lose a client and then you get to feed and house me until I die, via more taxation.

The company taking the no holds barred approach and not giving in on anything,.....not letting people early out after years of a consession and long service....no raises......and not negotiating in good faith.....will have extreme ramifications long term and will be suicidal for AA......those that are left after the fray will still have to meet and greet customers.... will still have to maintain and fly the planes.....and we will not be happy.....and it will show......might as well close the door now. Its not just a numbers/ bean counter game that make a company. You get what you pay for.....you pay industry low wages......and repetitively stick it to your work force.....the people who actually make it happen......see what kind of attitude and service you get in return......so invest in yourselves (the top tier exects) infrustructures and new planes.....people and their skills make this Airline run.....piss us off anymore than we already are and we die a slow death and AA is no more.

 

[eolesen]

ARE YOU ON CRACK ? How about what we all did for the company in 2003,...... your really out of touch sir!..... We all gave back a ton to the company.....intrusting the knuckle heads at the top to do the right thing by us with those concessions......to make the right decissions......to not spit in our faces with bonuses even though they may have been contractual......we all.....APFA/APA and TWU did something very "NICE" that we shouldnt of done in 2003 now in hindsight.....what a bone headed statement........sorry.

Nope, no crack. You're a fool if you think anyone cares what happened almost nine years ago. Regardless, it didn't work.

I was there in 2003, and took the same cuts you guys did, and we knew then that the pay cuts wouldn't work when job cuts were what was needed at the time.

2003 was a lesson learned for both sides, and not to be repeated.

All you people whining for Crandall's return... What Horton is doing (hard line in the sand, no @@@@ing around on what they will/won't consider) is exactly what I would have expected Bob to do. None of this death by a thousand cuts -- get it done In one pass.

Arpey couldn't do that the the employees, and you guys all wanted him gone, too.

Not sure what y'all expected the process to be, but so far, this is pretty tame compared to what some other airlines went thru...

 

[cf6mech]

Nope, no crack. You're a fool if you think anyone cares what happened almost nine years ago. Regardless, it didn't work.

I was there in 2003, and took the same cuts you guys did, and we knew then that the pay cuts wouldn't work when job cuts were what was needed at the time.

2003 was a lesson learned for both sides, and not to be repeated.

All you people whining for Crandall's return... What Horton is doing (hard line in the sand, no @@@@ing around on what they will/won't consider) is exactly what I would have expected Bob to do. None of this death by a thousand cuts -- get it done In one pass.

Arpey couldn't do that the the employees, and you guys all wanted him gone, too.

Not sure what y'all expected the process to be, but so far, this is pretty tame compared to what some other airlines went thru...

Anybody still on the payroll still remembers it very dearly.....it cost us all alot.....and still does today.....so whos forgetting?.....let bygones be bygones?......not likely. Didnt say anything about Crandalll..... but yes Im whinning....I have earned the right too....Back to subject.....your point of us not giving back to the company and being nice.....is wrong......a mortage payment a month in wages by me personnally seems to be very nice gesture to keep us afloat.....very generous in fact. To in turn watch management decission to remove seats for more leg room in coach ?.....and other bone head moves?.....to have them pat each others back and hand out bonuses as we lose money, the bonus money most decisively garnered from our consessions not from management stratagey.

 

[jimntx]

E's assessment of the nature of the present negotiations is accurate - and after 8 years of trying to negotiate w/o success, AA is in a pretty good position to argue to the judge that they have tried everything possible to negotiate cuts.

And, exactly what is the source of your information. Why the hell do you think the union is so put out with the NMB for not releasing us into self-help years ago? Over the past 8 years the company has put forth almost no effort in "trying to negotiate." The only one "trying to negotiate w/o success" is the union. There were times when the company did not even bother to show up to scheduled sessions, nor did they give the union even the courtesy of saying they weren't coming.

The NMB has been in violation of Federal law for some time. The law says if one of the parties refuses to negotiate in good faith the other party must be released. At a session, the company would come in and offer A (the same offer they had made 3 years before). The union would offer B. The company would respond with A. The union would offer B.1 (moving closer to the company's position). The company would counter with A. If you and E think that is bargaining in good faith, then I think it's time for the both of you to put down the liquor and attend an AA (not American Airlines) meeting with me.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Good faith is a double-edged sword. Just look at some of the rhetoric in this forum - restore and more, retro pay increases, etc. Wanting back what was previously given up when the company you work for is still losing money won't get you anywhere with the NMB. If the NMB mediator is convinced that AA's offer of A is reasonable and justifiable, the union's proposals of B, B1, B2...aren't in good faith. Unrealistic demands by either side can constitute bad faith bargaining. If it's the union side, you don't get released.

Despite whatever you think the law requires, an impasse is when the two sides are close enough that in the opinion of the mediator an agreement can be reached and neither side will give any more to reach that agreement.

Jim

 

[ord78]

The company taking the no holds barred approach and not giving in on anything,.....not letting people early out after years of a consession and long service....no raises......and not negotiating in good faith.....will have extreme ramifications long term and will be suicidal for AA......those that are left after the fray will still have to meet and greet customers.... will still have to maintain and fly the planes.....and we will not be happy.....and it will show......might as well close the door now. Its not just a numbers/ bean counter game that make a company. You get what you pay for.....you pay industry low wages......and repetitively stick it to your work force.....the people who actually make it happen......see what kind of attitude and service you get in return......so invest in yourselves (the top tier exects) infrustructures and new planes.....people and their skills make this Airline run.....piss us off anymore than we already are and we die a slow death and AA is no more.

CF6 is right here and despite the wish by others :unsure: that somehow the company can tear up the contracts, pay the bottom rate, decades of work rules out the window and THEN expect any type of loyalty or decent service by those remaining after the dust settles....are indeed smoking something. No it doesn't sound right that those of us left behind wouldn't do everything to keep the company afloat but does not take into consideration human nature. Centerport is focused only on numbers and unless they take their eye off that goal and least GLANCE over here to human nature, well, i at 34 years fully expect to see a full c-7 liquidation and to be unemployed in about 6 months.

 

[BigMac]

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2012/02/american-airlines-rejects-the.html
Old news but did anyone think AA would really go for this? EPIC FAIL

 

[jimntx]

"We remain focused on reaching consensual agreements with our unions in the next few weeks."

Translated into the English...we remain focussed on forcing the unions to roll over and play dead OR on getting the judge to abrogate the current contracts so we can impose any rules we wish.

"If the NMB mediator is convinced that AA's offer of A is reasonable and justifiable, the union's proposals of B, B1, B2...aren't in good faith." (BoeingBoy)...just FYI, according to union updates, the NMB agreed with the union that the company was not bargaining in good faith, but "it wasn't the right time to allow a strike."

 

[737823]

"We remain focused on reaching consensual agreements with our unions in the next few weeks."

Translated into the English...we remain focussed on forcing the unions to roll over and play dead OR on getting the judge to abrogate the current contracts so we can impose any rules we wish.

"If the NMB mediator is convinced that AA's offer of A is reasonable and justifiable, the union's proposals of B, B1, B2...aren't in good faith." (BoeingBoy)...just FYI, according to union updates, the NMB agreed with the union that the company was not bargaining in good faith, but "it wasn't the right time to allow a strike."

Do you expect anything different at this point?

Josh