Is the AMT Pension next concession of the TWU?

[Vortilon]

Here we go again.

 

[Hopeful]

What? You mean that TWU Informer now floats the company trial balloons for the company? B)

I agree with Mr Owens. For now, the DB pension contributions are likely still cheaper than the alternatives. When that flips around, maybe AMR comes to you with hat in hand.

From my recollection, not only does UAL now have a 401(k) match, but the company makes a contribution to the employee's DC plan regardless of the employee's contribution. I don't recall the percentage, but we'll know how expensive it is at the end of 2006.

One point of reference: CAL's required contributions to its DB plans this year are $258 million v. $250 million at AMR. Given that AMR enjoys revenue about double that of CAL, AMR's pension contributions aren't painful at all. CAL just sold more COPA stock to raise cash for its maturing debt and pension contributions, while AMR has already made this year's contributions out of cash on hand. CO: Burning the Furniture; AMR: Plenty of positive cash flow.

Next year, however, under current law, AMR will have to make up all of the underfunding, which is nearly $3 billion at 12/31/05, unless Congress and the President agree to pension funding changes. And that looks less likely each day. Dunno whether AMR is likely to contribute $3 billion to keep the pensions or whether it will propose some sort of cash balance plan.

Fear not, The TWU will bend us over and tell us that unless we freeze the pension, they are going to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy because they can't afford the $3 million....

 

[Oneflyer]

Fear not, The TWU will bend us over and tell us that unless we freeze the pension, they are going to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy because they can't afford the $3 million....

Sometimes I think you guys would rather win, than compromise and get what is best for you. A unionized workforce would be so much better off with sometime of portable pension or 401k than with the traditional pension plan its difficult to understand why the union isn't asking the airline for it, rather than the other way around.

A 401k or portable pension cash balance type plan would give the union worker a huge bargaining chip against the company, the ability to leave the company. Right now with today's pension the company can screw you around all they want because they know you won't leave, because you're too tied down to the pension.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Sometimes I think you guys would rather win, than compromise and get what is best for you. A unionized workforce would be so much better off with sometime of portable pension or 401k than with the traditional pension plan its difficult to understand why the union isn't asking the airline for it, rather than the other way around.

A 401k or portable pension cash balance type plan would give the union worker a huge bargaining chip against the company, the ability to leave the company. Right now with today's pension the company can screw you around all they want because they know you won't leave, because you're too tied down to the pension.

If i leave tomorrow I still get my pension.
I will take the matced 401 but only if AA matches me dollar for dollar. Which you know they wont do.
Unless they match dollar for dollar the pension is the best way. Especially if you all ready max out your 401K

 

[Oneflyer]

If i leave tomorrow I still get my pension.
I will take the matced 401 but only if AA matches me dollar for dollar. Which you know they wont do.
Unless they match dollar for dollar the pension is the best way. Especially if you all ready max out your 401K

AA matches Dollar for dollar up to 5% right now, why would they change? I could see them matching up to 7% with a proper union negeotiation.

You get half or less if AA dumps their pension, which over the next 20-30 years is very likely. They can't take away your 401k, once they give you the money its yours.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

If i leave tomorrow I still get my pension.

Yes, you will get your pension. But it will be fixed at the dollar value at the day you left. Then, later, when you are eligible to draw your pension, it will have been ravaged by inflation, and will have much less buying power. That is what kept me from leaving when I was younger.

That is why a DB pension is called Golden Handcuffs.

 

[MCI transplant]

AA matches Dollar for dollar up to 5% right now, why would they change? I could see them matching up to 7% with a proper union negeotiation.

You get half or less if AA dumps their pension, which over the next 20-30 years is very likely. They can't take away your 401k, once they give you the money its yours.

<_< -----The aa 5% match on the 401K is only for non-Union management types! Not us low life Union members! As for dumping our pension, the only way they can do that now is if they go into bankruptcy! Under the new regulations I don't think that would be on option for them! Oh! Threats yes! But when the rubber meets the road, NO! One man's opinion! The only way is if our "Union" hands it to them! Now that might be a problem! It shouldn't! But with the TWU,you never know?

 

[Wretched Wrench]

You get half or less if AA dumps their pension,

Nope.

Study the info on the PBGC site. It has a pretty steep age/benefit curve. Many of us could even get full pension amount from the PBGC. I will.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Yes, you will get your pension. But it will be fixed at the dollar value at the day you left. Then, later, when you are eligible to draw your pension, it will have been ravaged by inflation, and will have much less buying power. That is what kept me from leaving when I was younger.

That is why a DB pension is called Golden Handcuffs.

And if the market takes a nose dive when they start shooting in Iran what will your 401 be worth

AA matches Dollar for dollar up to 5% right now, why would they change? I could see them matching up to 7% with a proper union negeotiation.

You get half or less if AA dumps their pension, which over the next 20-30 years is very likely. They can't take away your 401k, once they give you the money its yours.

So AA gives you 5 cents for every dollar you contribute
Is that what you mean

 

[Oneflyer]

And if the market takes a nose dive when they start shooting in Iran what will your 401 be worth

What do you think your pension is invested in right now? The same thing your 401k would be invested in.

So AA gives you 5 cents for every dollar you contribute
Is that what you mean

No, for ever dollar you put in AA matches up to 5% of your total salary.

PBGC[/url

PBGC will pay you the benefit provided by your pension plan up to the limits set by law. There are several legal limits that PBGC must apply.

PBGC's maximum benefit guarantee is set each year under provisions of ERISA. For pension plans ending in 2005, the maximum guaranteed amount is $3,801.14 per month ($45,613.68 per year) for workers who retire at age 65. This guarantee amount is lower if you begin receiving payments from PBGC before age 65 or if your pension includes benefits for a survivor or other beneficiary. The guarantee amount may be higher if you are over age 65 when you begin receiving benefits from PBGC. See PBGC’s maximum monthly guarantee tables for maximum guarantee limits for straight-life and joint-and-50%-survivor annuities at various ages. For certain disability benefits, special rules apply.

In addition, if your plan was created or amended to increase benefits within five years before it ended, your benefit may not be fully guaranteed. PBGC guarantees the larger of 20% of the benefit or $20 per month for each full year the benefit was in effect. If you own more than 10% of the business, stricter limits apply.

If your plan provides supplemental benefits, such as temporary payments, they may not be fully guaranteed. Generally, PBGC does not guarantee any monthly pension amount that is greater than the monthly benefit your plan would have provided if you had retired at your normal retirement age.

Also, there is a limit on the combined amount you can receive from PBGC's funds if you are entitled to benefits from more than one pension plan that PBGC has taken over as trustee.



Does $48k per year give you full pension benefits?

 

[MCI transplant]

What do you think your pension is invested in right now? The same thing your 401k would be invested in.
No, for ever dollar you put in AA matches up to 5% of your total salary.

PBGC[/url

PBGC will pay you the benefit provided by your pension plan up to the limits set by law. There are several legal limits that PBGC must apply.

PBGC's maximum benefit guarantee is set each year under provisions of ERISA. For pension plans ending in 2005, the maximum guaranteed amount is $3,801.14 per month ($45,613.68 per year) for workers who retire at age 65. This guarantee amount is lower if you begin receiving payments from PBGC before age 65 or if your pension includes benefits for a survivor or other beneficiary. The guarantee amount may be higher if you are over age 65 when you begin receiving benefits from PBGC. See PBGC’s maximum monthly guarantee tables for maximum guarantee limits for straight-life and joint-and-50%-survivor annuities at various ages. For certain disability benefits, special rules apply.

In addition, if your plan was created or amended to increase benefits within five years before it ended, your benefit may not be fully guaranteed. PBGC guarantees the larger of 20% of the benefit or $20 per month for each full year the benefit was in effect. If you own more than 10% of the business, stricter limits apply.

If your plan provides supplemental benefits, such as temporary payments, they may not be fully guaranteed. Generally, PBGC does not guarantee any monthly pension amount that is greater than the monthly benefit your plan would have provided if you had retired at your normal retirement age.

Also, there is a limit on the combined amount you can receive from PBGC's funds if you are entitled to benefits from more than one pension plan that PBGC has taken over as trustee.
Does $48k per year give you full pension benefits?

<_< ---- So what's the point in all this talk about the PBGC? Are you saying that there's more than a good chance that aa will go into bankrupcy in the next "20 to 30 years"? Because that's the only way the PBGC could get involved in our pensions!!! If you're not saying that, then it's a mute issue, now ain't it?

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Does $48k per year give you full pension benefits?

Ah, I see you are now better informed on the PBGC, and now realize that we will not all "get half or less if AA dumps their pension", as you previously posted. But posting stuff lifted from another site you just discovered does not make you an instant expert. Nor does it give you any credibility. Nor does it distance you from your uninformed and erroneous post. You would be better off just sticking to opinions, and leave facts to those who have done their homework.

I hope nobody got all upset and went out and hanged themself over your posting that they would get less than half. You probably upset a few by saying it is very likely that AA will dump their pension in the next 20-30 years. Ah well, at least that is an opinion, not a statement of purported fact. An opinion, I might add, that I sort of agree with. In some manner, AA will change or convert, but probably not dump, its pension.

However, your stated time frame is a little long. In 20 or 30 years, the retirement plan, no matter what permutation it has evolved into, will have been shaped to AA's liking, and will not need to be "dumped" as you say.

To answer your question, $48k per year is what a line mech with 42 1/2 years gets if he retired within four years of the start of the 2001 contract. A line mechanic retiring later would get less, as fewer months of the higher pay rate would be in his final four years, and would make his final average salary less.

 

[AMFAMAN]

To answer your question, $48k per year is what a line mech with 42 1/2 years gets if he retired within four years of the start of the 2001 contract.

I've been told that the 48k includes social security, would that be correct?

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

What do you think your pension is invested in right now? The same thing your 401k would be invested in.

You are comparing apples to oranges.
If my 401 tanks because the market tanks my pension is uneffected.
My pension payment has nothing to do with the market.

No, for ever dollar you put in AA matches up to 5% of your total salary

So AA is going to match me up to 3500 dollars a year. Thats on a salary of 70K

Or take a pension payment of 25K a year.
I'll take the pension payment.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

I've been told that the 48k includes social security, would that be correct?

The PBGC site doesn't seem to make mention of SS at all.

Who told you that? Perhaps they found something I missed. Maybe someone at the United or Eastern forums would have accurate experience-based info.