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IBEW Update
- Thread starter Tim Nelson
- Start date
- Status
Dog Wonder
Veteran
'People believe what they want to believe when it makes no sense at all.'
Jester
Veteran
Freedom,
I think you made a great deal of sense, but that's speaking as a fellow Westie.
Unfortunately, West has become the hostage in the pissing match stand-off between Management, East and IAM. However, unlike most stand-offs, none of the parties care about this hostage. Those aforementioned parties are indifferent to West to live in near poverty until their own objectives have been met. If we get a bone tossed to us along the way to solving their own issues then they will feel as if they have done their duty, but we are not anyone's priority or concern for the most part.
I don't know how serious IBEW is about representing Fleet given Canale's letter, but I will be in support of any change from the IAM as we have been completely neglected by our so-called "representation". Working without a contract for two years (?) and little in the way of negotiations and not even a strike vote? Hell, I would strike in a moment's notice. What do I have to lose? A job paying less than $10/hour? I might actually enjoy the time off. I can't change the East membership and I can't change Management, but the IAM could be replaced with a certainly more sympathetic union for the West as IBEW's interest in West can't be less than IAM's zero. If there ends up being no union, I don't think I would notice any difference since about the only communication I get from the IAM is when I see my payroll deduction and IAM's "The Messenger" (which incidentally fits great as a cat box liner). If there was no union would Company fire me? They can't find decent experienced people already willing to do the job at this pay scale. Would I lose my pension? I don't have one. Would I lose sick days? I don't get any. Would I lose my high paying union pay scale? Oh, non-union Delta rampers are paid much better. I might lose my monthly picture of Boss Canale's smarmy grill on "The Messenger".
Furthermore, I think that "The Great Pumpkin" won't be delivering a favorable ruling for East on the CIC, contrary to all the wishes and chatter, regardless of how many sleepness nights in the pumpkin patch (not to be confused with the corn field which is where I might be heading). Sadly, it means West continues to wait perhaps a decade after all the appeals and East continues to make a livable wage. Bring East down to the West pay scale and this TA will be resolved in short order. Again, no one cares about West.
Finally, one side note for the board, in general: How much do you think you are worth or rather how much should you be paid by Company? I ask because what I am reading in this room is almost delusional and living in the past, given the changes in the industry, the skill set involved and if Company closes tomorrow what would be your options and pay scale even at another airline (or subcontractor... egads!) doing the same job? (Might be my first threat starter as it is a new topic.)
So "sezeth" Jester.
I think you made a great deal of sense, but that's speaking as a fellow Westie.
Unfortunately, West has become the hostage in the pissing match stand-off between Management, East and IAM. However, unlike most stand-offs, none of the parties care about this hostage. Those aforementioned parties are indifferent to West to live in near poverty until their own objectives have been met. If we get a bone tossed to us along the way to solving their own issues then they will feel as if they have done their duty, but we are not anyone's priority or concern for the most part.
I don't know how serious IBEW is about representing Fleet given Canale's letter, but I will be in support of any change from the IAM as we have been completely neglected by our so-called "representation". Working without a contract for two years (?) and little in the way of negotiations and not even a strike vote? Hell, I would strike in a moment's notice. What do I have to lose? A job paying less than $10/hour? I might actually enjoy the time off. I can't change the East membership and I can't change Management, but the IAM could be replaced with a certainly more sympathetic union for the West as IBEW's interest in West can't be less than IAM's zero. If there ends up being no union, I don't think I would notice any difference since about the only communication I get from the IAM is when I see my payroll deduction and IAM's "The Messenger" (which incidentally fits great as a cat box liner). If there was no union would Company fire me? They can't find decent experienced people already willing to do the job at this pay scale. Would I lose my pension? I don't have one. Would I lose sick days? I don't get any. Would I lose my high paying union pay scale? Oh, non-union Delta rampers are paid much better. I might lose my monthly picture of Boss Canale's smarmy grill on "The Messenger".
Furthermore, I think that "The Great Pumpkin" won't be delivering a favorable ruling for East on the CIC, contrary to all the wishes and chatter, regardless of how many sleepness nights in the pumpkin patch (not to be confused with the corn field which is where I might be heading). Sadly, it means West continues to wait perhaps a decade after all the appeals and East continues to make a livable wage. Bring East down to the West pay scale and this TA will be resolved in short order. Again, no one cares about West.
Finally, one side note for the board, in general: How much do you think you are worth or rather how much should you be paid by Company? I ask because what I am reading in this room is almost delusional and living in the past, given the changes in the industry, the skill set involved and if Company closes tomorrow what would be your options and pay scale even at another airline (or subcontractor... egads!) doing the same job? (Might be my first threat starter as it is a new topic.)
So "sezeth" Jester.
Labor Dawg
Advanced
Jester I believe everything you say. I think it is sad that the IAM has refused to do any work for the westies. I have talked to people in LAS and was told that they could not even participate in their local elections even though they were by at least 4 to 5 months represented by the IAM. This shows how much they care about the west. I talked to people that have said that the IAM AGC stood over them when voting on the T/A and were yelling they should vote yes. This is how the IAM works they try to scare everyone into an agreement before anyone can fully review the agreement! I spoke to people in DCA and was told that the AGC came in without warning and said we are voting on the T/A right now. Their voting process is set up so they can manipulate the outcome. For years they didn't even have control numbers on the ballots. Its is a real shame because most of the members have been way to complacent for way to long and now it is do or die time! We must stand united and defeat a common enemy the company and its bed buddies the IAM. We can tell you horror stories but unless you feel them your selves you tend not to get too caught in the stories! The answer is simple the IAM is now relaxed because they think the letter and the AFL-CIO will protect them but we really do have the power in numbers. It is terrible that the IAM is acting like a kid and running to mommy when things go bad even when they are a grown adult. That is what is happening! They have not done anything for so long that people are tired of them and the IAM is just now picking up on the fact. The sad things they won't learn from this because they have lost thousands of members before and it has never curbed their weak representation!
Good luck over there on the west and we on the east do feel you pain because we have been there! We sat by and waited for almost five years before the IAM made finally got something even interesting and that was because Wolf offered up something! He only did these contracts so he would have all the unions inline so the United merger would happen. Funny thing that never happened and they tried everyway they could to strip the contract from us. They finally got the relief they wanted when they drove the airline into bankruptcy! GOOD LUCK AND VOTE IBEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck over there on the west and we on the east do feel you pain because we have been there! We sat by and waited for almost five years before the IAM made finally got something even interesting and that was because Wolf offered up something! He only did these contracts so he would have all the unions inline so the United merger would happen. Funny thing that never happened and they tried everyway they could to strip the contract from us. They finally got the relief they wanted when they drove the airline into bankruptcy! GOOD LUCK AND VOTE IBEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Henderfuzz
Senior
- Mar 29, 2006
- 305
- 0
Let me say just one thing about everyone saying we need more job protection.
What good is it. Just ask the boys in Pit. The company can shut down or downsize a station at the drop of a hat. So I dont think that is near as important as wages and the sick leave policy.
What good is it. Just ask the boys in Pit. The company can shut down or downsize a station at the drop of a hat. So I dont think that is near as important as wages and the sick leave policy.
perserverance
Senior
- Aug 10, 2007
- 382
- 0
Jester,
I want you to know that people do care what happens to the West employees'.
We want all of us to agree to a transition, not just West or East heavy or senior to junior
heavy. There should be a good scale to start with the scale ending with an employee
working the years necessary to achieve a good wage for his or her years of service
to a company made profitable by them. We need upgrades in scale, benifits, sick time,
and security, that both the West and East can agree on. To address your post as to:
''How much do you think you are worth or rather how much should you be paid by Company? I ask because what I am reading in this room is almost delusional and living in the past, given the changes in the industry,''
Though you'll have no argument that the industry has changed, I'd ask you to recognize
that the profits that the major airlines are making are back to or above the profits that were
made in the past. I don't think it to be dilusional to expect to be treated with the dignity of a
wage that mirrors that which the company is making. This once was a job that when hired you
as the newly hired worker thought you may have found the job that can support you for a long
time. As much as the company heads would like to say this should not be a long term profession,
I'd like to add when it was a profession the job was getting done. They talk of employee turnover
and a/c damage along with discipline for abseteism. The old attage ''you get what you pay for''
applies. Most workers would like to see it return to that of a job with some dignity and good pay to
attract a good worker from the pool of unemployed and get back the pride that was once displayed
by this workforce. This may sound delusional but I prefer to think of it as possible.
This past week in PHL they found a stolen gun from a military shipment with a GPS on it
hidden in the ceiling tiles of ''unit 4''. They also found a hand gun during the search that was found
by accident. This is what were hiring, this is what were working with. So if the opposite is to be
delusional, well ............
Thanks
I want you to know that people do care what happens to the West employees'.
We want all of us to agree to a transition, not just West or East heavy or senior to junior
heavy. There should be a good scale to start with the scale ending with an employee
working the years necessary to achieve a good wage for his or her years of service
to a company made profitable by them. We need upgrades in scale, benifits, sick time,
and security, that both the West and East can agree on. To address your post as to:
''How much do you think you are worth or rather how much should you be paid by Company? I ask because what I am reading in this room is almost delusional and living in the past, given the changes in the industry,''
Though you'll have no argument that the industry has changed, I'd ask you to recognize
that the profits that the major airlines are making are back to or above the profits that were
made in the past. I don't think it to be dilusional to expect to be treated with the dignity of a
wage that mirrors that which the company is making. This once was a job that when hired you
as the newly hired worker thought you may have found the job that can support you for a long
time. As much as the company heads would like to say this should not be a long term profession,
I'd like to add when it was a profession the job was getting done. They talk of employee turnover
and a/c damage along with discipline for abseteism. The old attage ''you get what you pay for''
applies. Most workers would like to see it return to that of a job with some dignity and good pay to
attract a good worker from the pool of unemployed and get back the pride that was once displayed
by this workforce. This may sound delusional but I prefer to think of it as possible.
This past week in PHL they found a stolen gun from a military shipment with a GPS on it
hidden in the ceiling tiles of ''unit 4''. They also found a hand gun during the search that was found
by accident. This is what were hiring, this is what were working with. So if the opposite is to be
delusional, well ............
Thanks
perserverance
Senior
- Aug 10, 2007
- 382
- 0
freedom-
You do realize that the wages and benifits were better in 1999 then they currently
are right now. Odd how we go before an arbitraitor to ask him to award us a pay rate from
over 8 years ago and its' better than our current rates. I'd fight to get that back first and then
work for an agreement based on them figures, not off our current numbers.
henderfuzz- Job protection can protect the stations affected with downsizing and station movements.
The language in an agreement in job protection gives the employee the security of knowing he
may maintain his job at his current pay rate without fear of being placed in a situation of possibly
having to relocate and then be possibly contracted out. It can provide a secure feeling if agreed
upon by both you and the company to where you feel comfortable in its recognition and scope.
It is always one of the top priorities when going into any discussions on any agreement.
Thanks
You do realize that the wages and benifits were better in 1999 then they currently
are right now. Odd how we go before an arbitraitor to ask him to award us a pay rate from
over 8 years ago and its' better than our current rates. I'd fight to get that back first and then
work for an agreement based on them figures, not off our current numbers.
henderfuzz- Job protection can protect the stations affected with downsizing and station movements.
The language in an agreement in job protection gives the employee the security of knowing he
may maintain his job at his current pay rate without fear of being placed in a situation of possibly
having to relocate and then be possibly contracted out. It can provide a secure feeling if agreed
upon by both you and the company to where you feel comfortable in its recognition and scope.
It is always one of the top priorities when going into any discussions on any agreement.
Thanks
Labor Dawg
Advanced
Is BOS out there? Are they going to be labor leaders like so many times before? These are brothers and sisters who have stood up to the machine before. I would like to hear from them on the IBEW drive. I wonder if they think the IAM is doing great things or do they feel much like the rest of us?
orioleman
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2007
- 1,669
- 64
Freedom
All I know is I’m tired of playing the waiting game
unfortunately.. thats how it works .. God forbid if your union actually asked you to strike..
just curious.. I know the wages you make out west are poverty stricken..
but did they (the company) not tell you your wage scale when you were hired.. did you not make a decison to work under
those work rules.. You are just what the IAM was banking on . "throw a bone and they will chew on it" I myself would rather see
a little meat on that bone.. and with that it takes time..
All I know is I’m tired of playing the waiting game
unfortunately.. thats how it works .. God forbid if your union actually asked you to strike..
just curious.. I know the wages you make out west are poverty stricken..
but did they (the company) not tell you your wage scale when you were hired.. did you not make a decison to work under
those work rules.. You are just what the IAM was banking on . "throw a bone and they will chew on it" I myself would rather see
a little meat on that bone.. and with that it takes time..
proud2bphilly
Member
- Sep 11, 2007
- 41
- 0
I also believe this to be true.......but...........who cares if they pass it thru without a vote? As long as whatever is in there is an improvement on the current cba and there is no extension. Then we get the best of both sides with that.. That would probably be the best option out there. WE WOULD GET IMPROVEMENTS AND BE ABLE TO RENEGOTIATE AT THE END OF 09. It wouldnt stop the organizing drive of the ibew either...... Doesnt sound all that bad to me. Obviously it all depends on the arbitrators decision first. If we win everything there then it wont be seen as a good thing...but if we lose.......................
Jester
Veteran
Dawg,
I appreciate your kind words when you say, "Good luck over there on the west and we on the east do feel you pain because we have been there!" However, I also realize there are many on this board who think any raise that comes West way be subject to East voting on it, which brings back my contention that West is a "hostage" various parties as there will be no raise for West unless East gets something too.
Perservance,
I enjoyed your responsed to my question, although respectfully, I think you were a tad intellectually dishonest in that you left out key conditions subject to "the changes in the industry, the skill set involved and if Company closes tomorrow what would be your options and pay scale even at another airline (or subcontractor... egads!) doing the same job?" Yes, the industry has changed and only a fool would say otherwise, but let us not ignore that relative worth or value would probably be close to what others would offer for same type of work and not just one employer heavily dependent upon longevity being in a company for 20 years. If the 20 years of experience was such a great personal asset to another employer, the new employer would be willing to pay a premium over the entry level rate (as so you wouldn't be hired by a competitor or find work outside of the industry), and I doubt you would see that happening. So I'll ask again: "What are you really worth?"
Orioleman,
Even though your following statement was not directly asked to me this time, "just curious.. I know the wages you make out west are poverty stricken... but did they (the company) not tell you your wage scale when you were hired.. did you not make a decison to work under," I feel compelled to reply. Do we work for the same company? Do we perform the same type of work? Are we represented by the same union? Do we work on the same types of aircraft? You are right, it was the terms under which I agreed to work, but keep in mind West has been working without a contract for years and that's subject to negotiation for which the IAM has conveniently forgotten and it is an issue of fairness as to why East should be treated in such a material difference as to West. I could make the same argument with you and say, "What's your problem? You have a valid contract through 2009 and yet, you stay here knowing the terms, so stop complaining."
So speaks Jester.
I appreciate your kind words when you say, "Good luck over there on the west and we on the east do feel you pain because we have been there!" However, I also realize there are many on this board who think any raise that comes West way be subject to East voting on it, which brings back my contention that West is a "hostage" various parties as there will be no raise for West unless East gets something too.
Perservance,
I enjoyed your responsed to my question, although respectfully, I think you were a tad intellectually dishonest in that you left out key conditions subject to "the changes in the industry, the skill set involved and if Company closes tomorrow what would be your options and pay scale even at another airline (or subcontractor... egads!) doing the same job?" Yes, the industry has changed and only a fool would say otherwise, but let us not ignore that relative worth or value would probably be close to what others would offer for same type of work and not just one employer heavily dependent upon longevity being in a company for 20 years. If the 20 years of experience was such a great personal asset to another employer, the new employer would be willing to pay a premium over the entry level rate (as so you wouldn't be hired by a competitor or find work outside of the industry), and I doubt you would see that happening. So I'll ask again: "What are you really worth?"
Orioleman,
Even though your following statement was not directly asked to me this time, "just curious.. I know the wages you make out west are poverty stricken... but did they (the company) not tell you your wage scale when you were hired.. did you not make a decison to work under," I feel compelled to reply. Do we work for the same company? Do we perform the same type of work? Are we represented by the same union? Do we work on the same types of aircraft? You are right, it was the terms under which I agreed to work, but keep in mind West has been working without a contract for years and that's subject to negotiation for which the IAM has conveniently forgotten and it is an issue of fairness as to why East should be treated in such a material difference as to West. I could make the same argument with you and say, "What's your problem? You have a valid contract through 2009 and yet, you stay here knowing the terms, so stop complaining."
So speaks Jester.
zone2
Member
- Oct 17, 2007
- 60
- 0
Jester you sound like Tim Nelson.."I APPRECIATE YOUR KIND WORDS"
- Status
