IAM Stepping Up campaign

[WorldTraveler]

So now you are resulting to general union vs non-union comparisons that aren't even specific to the airline industry?

Are you sure you can say that the IAM can deliver to DL employees better than the same workgroup IAM employees at other airlines?

no. because DL employees already fare much better than their union counterparts at other airlines - more growth and advancement opportunities, higher profit sharing (some unions walked away from it completely even as analysts said that profits in the industry would increase with consolidation), and more insourcing of jobs that other airlines are still outsourcing.

tell us about the job security successes at UA and the pay raise successes at US.

 

[700UW]

The fact is PMNW did better in Chapter 11 than their PMDL counterparts speaks enough.
 
Kevin has tried to educate you on this matter time and time again.
 
And all three IAM CBAs at US contained raises for two or three raises after the amendable date and that was never done in the airlines before.
 
Everything in a CBA is the rules and cant be changed by the whim of the company, just like how DL cut the non-union profit sharing by 33% without them having a say in the matter.

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, PMNW ramp did better in terms of pay cuts simply because NW wiped out the entire maintenance division and received a huge percentage of the cuts they needed.


PMNW cut a higher percentage of jobs over the same period of time than DL - and because of AMFA, the payroll was larger because mechanics were and are above average compensated compared to other ground personnel.

You and Kev and anyone else are free to make whatever claims you want but the DOT data - which is well captured in the MIT airline data project - tells the accurate story.

As for pay raises, DL employees have received pay raises every year, have had the highest profit sharing in the history of aviation probably anywhere in the world, and their profit sharing INCREASED after the reduced percentage.

Plz post for me the profit sharing payouts for IAM workgroups at other airlines.

DL employees aren't about to vote for something that would set them back or require DL people to associate with a union that has failed to obtain the increases for its own people that DL employees have enjoyed.

 

[Kev3188]

Are you sure you can say that the IAM can deliver to DL employees better than the same workgroup IAM employees at other airlines?

"The IAM" = duly elected coworkers, not some detached entity.

You're free to toss out whatever polemic you want, but the discussion starts from there.

tell us about the job security successes at UA and the pay raise successes at US.

Tell us about the complete lack of job security at DL.

 

[Kev3188]

You and Kev and anyone else are free to make whatever claims you want but the DOT data - which is well captured in the MIT airline data project - tells the accurate story.

Just for fun, how 'bout you share how much revenue per employee is generated. ASM's per employee would also be good.

 

[southwind]

speaking of non delta interference  you must also include yourself since you have not been with delta in yrs.  

Has 700 "EVER" worked for DL? Because he sure seems to be leading the charge!

 

[700UW]

The IAM didnt represent the mechanics at NW, you talked about IAM CBAs so I brought up the ramp as they were IAM, the mechanics were AMFA.
 
Really WT?

 

[WorldTraveler]

The IAM didnt represent the mechanics at NW, you talked about IAM CBAs so I brought up the ramp as they were IAM, the mechanics were AMFA.

Really WT?

yes, I get that... but it doesn't change that it was AMFA that took the brunt of NW's cuts which made it easier on the other employer groups.

And I still want to see the pay raises for IAM represented groups at each of the airlines they represent since you asked the same thing about DL employees over the past 4 years.
 

Just for fun, how 'bout you share how much revenue per employee is generated. ASM's per employee would also be good.

Kevin,
I'm DELIGHTED that you want to know these kinds of numbers. They are available from the MIT airline data project site here which I have repeatedly noted.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html

the answers you want are in the Employee Data and Analysis tab for each of the carriers.... I am just including the big 5 here

There are details by workgroup which I'm sure will be of interest to you but I am not going to transcribe all of that data here.

There are also multiple years worth of data including for CO and NW which no longer exist so you can indeed compare what NW was at the time of the merger to what DL was then and is now.




AA ASMS/employee (total) 2,365,000, revenue/employee 290,000

DL 2,559,000 and 311,000

WN 2,833,000 and 341,000

UA 2,458,000 and 293,000

US 2,375,000 and 283,000

This type of fact-based discussion is exactly what I enjoy having here, Kev, and I am more than happy to help walk thru the sea of data that is on those pages with you or anyone else.

The data also reinforces what I have long said that a union doesn't have the ability of an airline to compensate its employees do; the airline's ability to generate strong and growing revenues does.

You will note if you look at the trends of data that DL's revenue growth is exactly what has allowed it to begin to separate itself from its network carrier peers and get closer to WN which has long been a very efficient revenue generating machine to the benefit of its employees.

 

[700UW]

The pay rates are all on the internet, go search it out, you are a numbers guy.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Then don't go posting half of the story... if it is all on the internet then you have no business posting something to try and convince DL people that they are worse off when in fact if you put the total compensation charts on there and include everything including the profit sharing which you seem to have this huge allergy to whenever the topic arises.

The simple fact is that you don't want to show that the IAM's workgroups haven't obtained the level of compensation increases that DL employees have received.

If you want to debate that fact, put up the facts to show it - - but I know you won't because NO large US airline has increased the pay of their people as fast as DL has.

 

[700UW]

I will post whatever I want to as long as its conforms with Board Rules.

If you dont like it, dont read it.
 
You are the SpinMaster of the boards.
 
We are still waiting for over two weeks when you stated "All DL employees got the same increases as the pilots"
 
You never posted the facts and I had to ask Kevin, and you are wrong, go figure!

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not telling you what to post or not.

I will point out that you are happy to post anything that attempts to convince DL employees that they need the IAM - but you won't post the direct data comparisons to show that the IAM has failed to generate the pay raises or job protections for its people that you claim they can provide.

And, yes, DL employees have job protections which are clearly evident by the RESULTS and not just by what is written on a piece of paper. As we have seen time and time again, airline mgmt. teams that want to decimate their work forces have been more than capable of doing so regardless of what is written on a piece of paper.

The data I provided to Kevin is precisely where you will see that US has the highest percent of maintenance outsourcing among the network carriers - only slightly better than WN that has heavily outsourced maintenance since WN was founded. UA isn't far behind US.

And yet we have to listen to you tell us about all of the job protections that labor unions provide when the evidence is overwhelming that has not occurred.

 

[700UW]

Yep there you go twisting numbers again.
 
US does more in-house overhaul of planes than WN, DL, and UA.
 
The numbers are high because components are sent out to be overhauled.
 
50% of Heavy Maintenance Billable Hours must be done in-house.
 
Line Maintenance isnt farmed out.
 
And DL doesnt overhaul any of their own fleet, its all contracted out.
 
And there are raises negotiated in every CBA.
 
Lets see DL closed DFW Hub, and Hangar, closed TPA Hangar, Closed MCO hub, Closed ANC, Closed MEM hub, reduced CVG and reduced MSP jobs.
 
And just cut jobs in DTW.
 
And those employees are at the whim of how DL decides they want to handle it, with a CBA there are procedures and guarantees.

 

[WorldTraveler]

well do you think that AA and DL mechanics who do component maintenance work for free?

US' total maintenance spend has a higher percentage of outsourcing than any other legacy airline.

Period.

Accept the reality that the protections the IAM negotiated have done absolutely nothing to make US keep more mechanics on its workforce that peers like DL where there is no union.

Plz list the number of hubs that US has closed.

You love to throw dirt but you can't stand a side by side equal comparison - because it will consistently show that unions in general and the IAM in specific can't provide anything as good as - let alone better than what DL employees already have.

 

[700UW]

Job Security and a Union CBA.
 
How many planes does DL outsource for overhaul and mods.
 
Survey says:
 
All of them.
 
How many more mechanics would DL need if they actually overhauled and modified their own fleet instead of flying planes to Asia, to get overhauled or mods done?
 
DL even ferries their 777s to Europe to get the interior sprayed with bug spray.