Glenn Quagmire
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- Apr 30, 2012
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Hey onion, you do realize that seniority only matters in a union shop.
Delta Flight Attendants Meet at Winpisinger Center
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southwind
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24 employees out of "How" many?
Kev3188
Veteran
There's currently thousands of signed cards on file; you tell me.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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I don't know of a single non-union workgroup in the airline industry that is largely union represented at other carriers that have ditched seniority as the primary method for bidding a host of job functions as well as establishing pay and benefits.
Can you cite one?
Glenn Quagmire
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- Apr 30, 2012
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The difference is choosing to use seniority in most cases, or having to use it in all cases because it is in a CBA.
Delta can choose to circumvent seniority at any time. If they do, there is no negotioated greivance process for employee remedy.
The Lead Selection process for maintenance at Delta compared to union shops (at least the way it was per-merger) was not seniority based.
Kev or others can tell you how those are done.
Delta can choose to circumvent seniority at any time. If they do, there is no negotioated greivance process for employee remedy.
The Lead Selection process for maintenance at Delta compared to union shops (at least the way it was per-merger) was not seniority based.
Kev or others can tell you how those are done.
Kev3188
Veteran
Lead selection for both the ramp and counter are not seniority based at all.
Other non-supervisory positions completely disregard it during the selection process as well.
Bottom line: Employees at DL don't own their seniority at all, and yes the company can-and does- circumvent it at will.
Other non-supervisory positions completely disregard it during the selection process as well.
Bottom line: Employees at DL don't own their seniority at all, and yes the company can-and does- circumvent it at will.
Kev3188
Veteran
I'm claiming they're not seniority based.
I can imagine the other factors you mentioned playing a role as well...
I can imagine the other factors you mentioned playing a role as well...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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good question and good answer....
The primary essence is that DL's philosophy of leadership development is not the same at other airlines based on DL's belief that leadership characteristics are not tied to seniority or are something that should be open to popular input, including unions.
There are unique sets of leadership that DL has looked for in its leadership employees for decades and for much of that time they used an industrial psychologist to help identify if employee candidates (external and internal) met the qualifications of the positions for which they applied.
Even frontline employees begin the process of transitioning from a scale-based assessment and promotion process to one that is partially merit based. The higher one goes in the company, the more merit-based the process becomes.
Many categories of employees were tested by the industrial psychologist including pilots. I do not believe DL is using that process any longer but they have incorporated some of the learnings from decades of pyschologically aided employment processes in their current hiring processes for all employees.
While I'm sure some would willdy object to such a process it has been very effective at helping DL achieve the employment goals it has had but I don't think the process has been used post-BK, but I may be wrong. Psychologically based employment testing is legal with consent.
I don't think first and 2nd level leadership in frontline areas are or were subjected to formal psychological testing but DL still has regarded leadership development differently than other airlines, and thus it is outside of the seniority system.
The levels of HR bureaucracy which have been discussed here exist to ensure that cronyism and personal favoritism cannot make or break someone's career and there is an extensive documentation system that exists before career-limiting employment decisions are made.
The success of DL's employment practices has to be measured against the success or failure of the airline as a whole and against the employee-related metrics which they publish to all employees.
But it still doesn't change that frontline DL employees and frontline supervision still have scale-based compensation and also bid their shifts and vacations etc based on seniority.
DL is of course not the only airline with non-employees in labor groups that are largely unionized at other airlines and I still don't know or have heard anyone suggest that any of them that have abandoned seniority for pay and bidding purposes.
The primary essence is that DL's philosophy of leadership development is not the same at other airlines based on DL's belief that leadership characteristics are not tied to seniority or are something that should be open to popular input, including unions.
There are unique sets of leadership that DL has looked for in its leadership employees for decades and for much of that time they used an industrial psychologist to help identify if employee candidates (external and internal) met the qualifications of the positions for which they applied.
Even frontline employees begin the process of transitioning from a scale-based assessment and promotion process to one that is partially merit based. The higher one goes in the company, the more merit-based the process becomes.
Many categories of employees were tested by the industrial psychologist including pilots. I do not believe DL is using that process any longer but they have incorporated some of the learnings from decades of pyschologically aided employment processes in their current hiring processes for all employees.
While I'm sure some would willdy object to such a process it has been very effective at helping DL achieve the employment goals it has had but I don't think the process has been used post-BK, but I may be wrong. Psychologically based employment testing is legal with consent.
I don't think first and 2nd level leadership in frontline areas are or were subjected to formal psychological testing but DL still has regarded leadership development differently than other airlines, and thus it is outside of the seniority system.
The levels of HR bureaucracy which have been discussed here exist to ensure that cronyism and personal favoritism cannot make or break someone's career and there is an extensive documentation system that exists before career-limiting employment decisions are made.
The success of DL's employment practices has to be measured against the success or failure of the airline as a whole and against the employee-related metrics which they publish to all employees.
But it still doesn't change that frontline DL employees and frontline supervision still have scale-based compensation and also bid their shifts and vacations etc based on seniority.
DL is of course not the only airline with non-employees in labor groups that are largely unionized at other airlines and I still don't know or have heard anyone suggest that any of them that have abandoned seniority for pay and bidding purposes.
Kev,
Outside the unionized world people are judged and awarded based on their contributions, merit, and performance. I know you believe seniority is a fair, easily measurable and objective criteria but it really is an arbitrary measure in my opinion. Sure experience at a job or in an industry is valuable to a point but does someone who has worked an F/A for 20 years really perform their job that much better than someone with 15 years experience? I imagine many feel that a measure other than seniority opens the door to discrimination, playing favorites, stacking the deck and allowing managers to hand pick people for promotions but unfortunately that's the reality for many in other industries. Even with the IAM and other unions its because of these things that people like Roach or Jim Little were able to climb the top so clearly the unions only support this for their membership not within their organizational structure.
If DL is indeed commiting all these injustices regarding seniority you incite then I imagine there would be greater interest in a union drive.
Josh
Outside the unionized world people are judged and awarded based on their contributions, merit, and performance. I know you believe seniority is a fair, easily measurable and objective criteria but it really is an arbitrary measure in my opinion. Sure experience at a job or in an industry is valuable to a point but does someone who has worked an F/A for 20 years really perform their job that much better than someone with 15 years experience? I imagine many feel that a measure other than seniority opens the door to discrimination, playing favorites, stacking the deck and allowing managers to hand pick people for promotions but unfortunately that's the reality for many in other industries. Even with the IAM and other unions its because of these things that people like Roach or Jim Little were able to climb the top so clearly the unions only support this for their membership not within their organizational structure.
If DL is indeed commiting all these injustices regarding seniority you incite then I imagine there would be greater interest in a union drive.
Josh
Kev3188
Veteran
Josh--
A. Please disabuse yourself of the notion that I live in a vacuum. I'm well aware of how the "rest of the world" works.
B. Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm not "inciting" (??) anything. What I am stating is that the selection process for many positions at DL-both promotions and lateral alike- are not solely awarded on seniority. That's in response to another poster who was somehow unable to come up with an example of any carrier that did that.
A. Please disabuse yourself of the notion that I live in a vacuum. I'm well aware of how the "rest of the world" works.
B. Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm not "inciting" (??) anything. What I am stating is that the selection process for many positions at DL-both promotions and lateral alike- are not solely awarded on seniority. That's in response to another poster who was somehow unable to come up with an example of any carrier that did that.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- Banned
- #72
Piedmont was non-union customer service and ramp and the station I worked it, it was filled with nepotism and favoritism, it was rampant.
An established seniority system is not perfect, but its way better than having to be the boss's pet to further your career.
An established seniority system is not perfect, but its way better than having to be the boss's pet to further your career.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #73
K*88,
As the presumed "other poster" my rebuttal continues to be in response to the notion that "seniority only matters in a union shop."
Even if DL does not do promotions and transfers on the basis of seniority, the vast majority of job functions are in fact done on the basis of seniority - pay is on a seniority based scale, bidding for vacation, shifts etc.
Your objections against anything that is not seniority based stem from labor's perception that if labor can't control it and if management alone does something, then it has to be corrupt and tilted against workers.
The vast majority of people in the American workforce -regardless of the industry - do not see management the way you and labor do. Sorry... but that is the reality.
I am not denying anything about what you have said about promotion and transfer processes - but those processes do not affect 100% of employees. 100% of employees in frontline areas and in 1st and 2nd level supervisory positions do use seniority based processes for pay and bidding, regardless of whether they are unionized or not.
And this is still not a DL only phenomenon. AA airport agents, B6 employees all are also non-union but they use seniority based systems just like their unionized counterparts.
My response was to the notion that seniority doesn't matter and doesn't apply in non-union environments which is categorically false.
Seniority is the almost exclusive means by which the vast majority of employment related processes are done in non-mgmt employee groups throughout the airline industry.
I still have yet to hear of an example of a US airline where seniority doesn't have any application in a frontline/operational workgroup. esp. for Flight attendants which is the subject of this discussion.
700,
As much as you want to believe otherwise, the world does not consist of the sum total of your personal experiences.
US has the unions they have because of the way and their predecessors treated their employees. Other airline employee groups, including most recently AA's agents do not believe that 1. either the way they are treated is so much worse than the way their unionized peers are treated (or will be) or 2. a union couldn't do anything differently if there was a difference.
As the presumed "other poster" my rebuttal continues to be in response to the notion that "seniority only matters in a union shop."
Even if DL does not do promotions and transfers on the basis of seniority, the vast majority of job functions are in fact done on the basis of seniority - pay is on a seniority based scale, bidding for vacation, shifts etc.
Your objections against anything that is not seniority based stem from labor's perception that if labor can't control it and if management alone does something, then it has to be corrupt and tilted against workers.
The vast majority of people in the American workforce -regardless of the industry - do not see management the way you and labor do. Sorry... but that is the reality.
I am not denying anything about what you have said about promotion and transfer processes - but those processes do not affect 100% of employees. 100% of employees in frontline areas and in 1st and 2nd level supervisory positions do use seniority based processes for pay and bidding, regardless of whether they are unionized or not.
And this is still not a DL only phenomenon. AA airport agents, B6 employees all are also non-union but they use seniority based systems just like their unionized counterparts.
My response was to the notion that seniority doesn't matter and doesn't apply in non-union environments which is categorically false.
Seniority is the almost exclusive means by which the vast majority of employment related processes are done in non-mgmt employee groups throughout the airline industry.
I still have yet to hear of an example of a US airline where seniority doesn't have any application in a frontline/operational workgroup. esp. for Flight attendants which is the subject of this discussion.
700,
As much as you want to believe otherwise, the world does not consist of the sum total of your personal experiences.
US has the unions they have because of the way and their predecessors treated their employees. Other airline employee groups, including most recently AA's agents do not believe that 1. either the way they are treated is so much worse than the way their unionized peers are treated (or will be) or 2. a union couldn't do anything differently if there was a difference.
