IAM Stepping Up campaign

[WorldTraveler]

I'm framing nothing.

I'm simply saying that most people would prefer to be able to speak for themselves but aren't willing to give anything up financially in order to get more voice.

I appreciate your idealism - I really do - but the evidence in the industry is overwhelming that companies that have heavy unionization have much more contentious labor relations. I believe it was one of the WN mechs on here that echoed that by saying that the tone between the company and labor changes to a negative, dire tone when contract negotiations are in process.

Problem for WN is that the fundamentals of their strategy really have changed and there won't be a quick return to the "let's all hold hands" routine.

DL, OTOH, has done an outstanding job of finding and growing revenue - that is what DAL and SEA are all about as the latest chapter after NYC - and it is those new revenues that continue to allow DL to throw money at its people.

If the growth stops and/or if labor relations become contentious and DL doesn't have the certainty that it can continue to grow at beneficial costs, the employees will suffer. The industry is full of examples to prove it.

 

[700UW]

yet the results are the same regardless of the mechanism that is used.

as for your testy part 2, did you already forget that many DL pilots lost 50% or more of their retirement. No DL non-contract employee lost that and DL pilots have given up many of the same things you have complained about including higher medical costs.

And they also got a replacement plan with increases in contributions, according to their CBA which you seem to ignore at every step.
 
Stop with the misinformation, you have been proven wrong over and over.
 
You are waste of bandwidth.
 
They lost jobs, they lost 33% of their profit sharing.
 
Did DL layoff any pilots due to the scope changes?
 
Nope, DL actually added mainline aircraft.
 
And you did state numerous times that the non-union got the same percentage of raises that the pilots got, I called you our for several days to post the facts and you never did, you are being dishonest once again.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way!

 

[Kev3188]

I'm framing nothing.

And "pounding a fist on the table"meant what exactly?

Sure ya are...

I appreciate your idealism - I really do - but the evidence in the industry is overwhelming that companies that have heavy unionization have much more contentious labor relations.

And?

Problem for WN is that the fundamentals of their strategy really have changed and there won't be a quick return to the "let's all hold hands" routine.

And?

DL, OTOH, has done an outstanding job of finding and growing revenue - that is what DAL and SEA are all about as the latest chapter after NYC -

No one's arguing that.

and it is those new revenues that continue to allow DL to throw money at its people.

That's a bit insulting, even by your standards.

What's next, us dancing a jig while mgmt. flings quarters at us?

 

[robbedagain]

why would dl folks need to speak for themselves when you are their house speaker   after all you are the delta cheerleader

 

[WorldTraveler]

again, 700, you seem to be under some distorted union idea that you can use class warfare as a means to push the union agenda at DL... .but what you can't do is prove that the concept of nonpilot and pilot employees being paid the same works anywhere.
So stop your distortions and deal with the reality that pilots are compared to pilots for salary and benefit purposes and other employees are compared to their peers, not to pilots.

but you have proven nothing about the profit sharing.... ALL profit sharing employees received the same percentage of their eligible salary. Pilots received nothing more in profit sharing than any other employees. If you want to argue that the pilots received a raise so they ended up with more profit sharing, that argument worked ONE TIME - and that was when the pilots received an 8% pay raise.

Regardless of whether DL is hiring pilots or not, pilot unions in the USA recognize that allowing large RJs is a relaxation of mainline pilot scope and has value in negotiations.

DL's mainline non-pilot personnel gave up nothing by allowing more large RJs. DL pilots gave up the potential future right to fly those planes, just as AA, UA, and US pilots all did and received some sort of consideration in their contracts because of it.


I'm not sure how you, 700, can be so obtuse on the profit sharing issue. DL pilots agreed to the same profit sharing cut which DL imposed on its non-contract personnel - and yet ALL of them received larger profit sharing checks for 2013 than they did the year before - and they very well might top it again in 10 more months.

You can't argue that the non-contract employees can be jacked around by the company at will and then argue that the company took away something that the employees didn't have to begin with. Make up your mind - either the employees had something and the company improved it by reformulating profit sharing despite the percentage reduction or they had nothing and it was all a gift anyway.

You are the only one who is arguing the point. I don't know of a single DL employee who said that they didn't want their profit sharing check this year because it was bigger - other than a few people who don't understand the concept of lump sum withholding.

You are the only one trying to make an argument that has no validity.

Move on. you truly look stupid by arguing a point which anyone who reads it can grasp - while you are completely unable to explain how DL's non-contract employees got more profit sharing that any of their unionized peers at other airlines.

Focus your energy on explaining what the IAM CAN DO. The track record unions have at other airlines is what will convince DL employees or not whether unions are worth their vote.

With each passing profit sharing check at DL and smaller ones, if any at other carriers, the IAM has a harder and harder case proving its worth.

so far, DL employees are consistently saying via the ballot box that they want nothing to do with any more unions.

Sorry, Kev, if you find the notion of throwing money at you insulting. I presume that pounding your fist at the negotiating table and threatening to walk out if you don't get what you want is a more dignified way to gain it?

 

[southwind]

Not soon enough.

Not really an answer, either.

 

[robbedagain]

kev already pointed out wt the facts   simple fact is  no OTHER group is getting any more percentage PS than the Pilots   bec the Pilots Negogiated that    the rest of the employees are at will

 

[WorldTraveler]

and yet they are also getting NO LESS OF A PERCENTAGE.

when the company starts treating the AT WILL employees worse than the pilots and when unions can deliver better results than what DL's non-contract employees presently get, then they would be stupid not to vote in a union - and I would call them stupid if that existed and they didn't.

But the unions have failed to demonstrate that they can deliver anything better at DL non-contract employees' direct peers and the company continues to ensure that the pilots don't get more than what DL is willing to give the rest of the employees.

and you are a union-represented airline non-pilot employee. Tell me how much profit sharing you have received over the past 4 or so years when DL has paid out well over $1B in profit sharing.

Can you also list the salary increases you have alongside those that Kev listed that DL non-contract employees received?

 

[robbedagain]

you can say what you want  but the FACT  is that 2% does not equal what the pilots are getting  PLAIN n SIMPLE  Period

 

[Kev3188]

a
Sorry, Kev, if you find the notion of throwing money at you insulting. I presume that pounding your fist at the negotiating table and threatening to walk out if you don't get what you want is a more dignified way to gain it?

You presume wrong.

How about recognizing the fact that DL employees-even ones on the ramp- EARN what they make?
 
 

Not really an answer, either.

Sure it was. It was MY answer.
 
 

when the company starts treating the AT WILL employees worse than the pilots and when unions can deliver better results than what DL's non-contract employees presently get, then they would be stupid not to vote in a union - and I would call them stupid if that existed and they didn't.

You've got it backwards: When the company STOPS treating other groups worse, then the push for representation will go away with it.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
the evidence is overwhelming based on actual voting results from active DL employees that they do not perceive their fate as worse than what other airline employees get - or at least something that a union can do anything about.

I'm sorry again if you felt offended by use of the word "thrown" because it does not in the least indicate that DL employees don't earn everything they get.

Industry and government statistics and my own personal use of DL compared to other airlines all validate that DL is running a best-in-class airline and continues to grow to the benefit of its employees precisely because they are on the same team with mgmt. Being unionized or not hasn't stopped DL and its employees from working together to everyone's benefit.

 

[Kev3188]

I'd forgotten you're one of those people that automatically equates "pro worker" with "anti-company."

My mistake.

BTW, just how do you think it is that DL is able to run a best-in-class airline?

 

[WorldTraveler]

where did you come up with the connection in anything I wrote between pro-worker and anti-company? As much as we have communicated, I am even more at a loss how you believe that I believe you to be anti-DL because you are pro-union.

I have consistently said that DL active employees - and no one else - will decide the future of unionization at DL but they have also repeatedly chosen not to seek further representation, even after the NW merger delivered tens of thousands of union members to DL.

I have repeatedly said that many companies deserve unions and get the labor relations which they create. I have rarely if ever said that labor creates the environment but rather it comes from mgmt.

DL's formula has long been to treat its people as good as or better than how other airlines treat their employees in the same class. Add in that DL has tried very hard to not create classes of employees within the company (ie no active employee has priority in boarding a flight for leisure travel than any other employee) as well as the profit sharing example you cited.

Kev,
I really do respect what you desire and understand (I think anyway) why you are passionate about what you believe. But I said from practically the day the merger was announced that DL would remain a largely non-union carrier and that is exactly what has happened. You came to the merger believing that DL could not provide what you believed you could get in a unionized airline. I came with the perspective of decades of work experience at DL believing that DL's culture (whether you find it acceptable or not) would prevail and that DL would continue its practices which have allowed it to convince its own employees that further unions are not necessary.

I really do wish you could achieve what you want at DL... but tens of thousands of your peers look at things differently than you do and the labor movement has not been able to find the votes necessary to convince a majority of any major workgroup to unionize. The FAs particularly have voted more times than probably only a handful of employees in the US will ever get to vote in a union representation election. The results including the elimination of the unions from all large nonpilot groups show that DL mgmt.'s labor strategy is working to achieve what they want and DL employees are not unhappy enough to believe they can find a better deal elsewhere.

I respect you enormously, Kev. You have a great heart and one of the keenest minds on aviation chat boards. I truly do wish the best for you.

But I can't pretend that you will find that as long as a major - if not the major goal for you - is to see more unions at DL.

btw, it is good to hear directly from you and with a minimum of interference from the non-DL employees who have consistently tried to inject themselves into the discussion.

 

[700UW]

This issue of fairness
 

 
 
When IAM-Delta released the fact that Delta Flight Attendants are at the bottom of the airline industry in wages and salaries as a percentage of operating revenue, Rumor Has It and IFS 360 scoffed and claimed that ALL employee groups at Delta would be at, or near, the bottom of the industry because Delta generated so much more revenue than any other carrier in the industry.

Then, IAM-Delta released the fact that Delta Pilots are among the top in the industry in wages and salaries as a percentage of operating revenue. If Delta Flight Attendants ranked third as do Delta Pilots, our average salary would increase by well over $10,000 annually. Why? Because we are among the most productive Flight Attendants in the airline industry. 

Our airline is at the top of the industry in generating revenue and profits. Shouldn’t we fairly share in that success? After all, we are a vital component in creating that success in the first place.

Sign a card today so we can legally negotiate with our airline and have a Voice in determining our future.

 

[Kev3188]

"A vital component increating that success..."

Indeed.