IAM Stepping Up campaign

[WorldTraveler]

Hey Kevin, Can you post the raises that ACS has gotten since June 29, 2012 including the lower percentage employees.

I second the motion although I'm not really expecting the answer to be posted because it would show that the DL pilots got a sum total of a couple percent more than the rest of DL's non-contract workforce over the same period and the pilots had to allow scores of new large RJs at DCI carriers while DL's non-contract workforce gave up nothing.

 

[700UW]

Gave up nothing?
 
How about the 33% reduction in profit sharing?
 
No group has gotten 13% since June 29, 2012 but the pilots and by the end of this year they will have gotten 20% and increased pension contributions.
 
No other group is close.
 
No other group has even gotten half of what the pilots negotiated.
 
Here are some figures:

 

01. Jan.2013: 4.66% (in exchange for PS payout change)
 
01. July.2012: 3.91%

So add that up and you get 8.57% and and some of the DL employees only got 2% as they are on a different scale.
 
So if you add the next raise in, some have gotten 11.57% and the "B" scale received less, 10.57%.

 

[Kev3188]

Hey Kevin, Can you post the raises that ACS has gotten since June 29, 2012 including the lower percentage employees.

Sure. Sorry I missed it on my last pass through...

01. July.2012: 4% for TOS, and either 2 or 3% for every one else.

01. Jan. 2013: 5% for TOS, and 4% for everyone else (this one was the infamous give-to-get with the unilateral change to the PS formula).

01. Apr. 2014: 3% TOS and 2 % for everyone else.


These increases drive a wedge between TOS and employees and everyone else. The 9 year guy next to me isn't worth the increase I got? How is that fair? It's not, and that doesn't even touch on the injustice of the RR pay scale (or lack thereof)...

Meanwhile, every pilot will see an equal increase in base rates (percentage-wise), regardless of time with the company. Obviously book rates by type are a separate issue.

The other truth is that while the pilots will get fixed increases over the life of their CBA, there is nothing saying anyone else will get anything, let alone anything that's ultimately on par with 20%. If anyone can state with certainty that ACS/IFS/etc. will, then we need to discuss tonight's lottery numbers.

...And yeah, every one of these increases has involved a quid pro quo for the non-contract groups...

 

[metopower]

Kev... Thanks for that last sentence. If you look historically that is how it has worked Here at DL. And I understand your point.

 

[WorldTraveler]

thank you, Kevin, for the facts you have posted.

first, based on your information, DL's TOS employees received pay raises comparable to what the pilots received in every year AFTER the first year in which DL pilots agreed to allow something like 70 more 76 seat RJs.
Even for a TOS employee, the difference between the pilots and the rest of the employee groups was 8% which was the amount of their first year raise - and no other group gave up any SCOPE whether it is in writing or not - in order to get any of that increase. DL pilots allowed roughly 10% of the entire mainline fleet to be added in RJs over the life of their contract.

Their contract is nearing the end of its cycle so I'm not sure how many pay raises are left but it isn't much if any.

As for the issue of TOS vs. "lower level" increases, let's also tie the pay increase reality with the fact that DL's competitors - AA, UA, and WN are all pushing heavily for more and more outsourcing. DL has used the RR program and now the reduced pay scale to protect the jobs of existing topped out employees at the very time that the IAM has endorsed a contract at UA which will result in thousands of jobs being eliminated, whether 700 wants to talk about it or not. There will be equally large job losses at AA/US; they just happen to be further from having to deal with the headcount and outsourcing issues because right now AA has more employees than it knows what to do with.

I'm not sure how you can argue that pay raises for pilots has resulted in a quid for DL non-contract employees and has for decades and then realistically believe the same thing won't happen.

All DL has to do - and I have repeatedly said it - is make sure DL employees fare better than their comparable workgroup peers at other airlines - who continue to receive far less, if any, profit sharing, are losing active (not just potential future) jobs and are not regaining mainline work to anywhere near the extent that DL employees are doing.

Further, DL has long learned that the best way to keep its non-contract employees from looking to unions for answers is to not give pilots more than they are willing to give to the rest of the company.

It is precisely for this reason that DL employees of all categories who are eligible for profit sharing will receive the EXACT SAME PERCENTAGE. Profit sharing is the most equalizing part of the compensation plan and it says that every DL employee will share in the same percentage in profit sharing as they share in the total payroll.

again, Kev, thanks for your honest and factual inclusion of facts. It is easy to discuss issues when actual facts are on the table.

 

[700UW]

No one has gotten 20% by the end of 2014 than the pilots.
 
Dude you are simply amazing at spinning and ignoring.

 

[Kev3188]

and no other group gave up any SCOPE whether it is in writing or not...

You can't give up what you don't have in the first place.
 

Their contract is nearing the end of its cycle so I'm not sure how many pay raises are left but it isn't much if any.

The timeline is irrelevant. The fact remains that they have fixed raises amounting to 20% over the life of the CBA. If you can state with certainty that every other group on the DL property will receive the same or more, then we can talk.

And remember, we're all focused on base rates here. We're not even discussing sick time accrual, grievance procedures and so on...
 

As for the issue of TOS vs. "lower level" increases, let's also tie the pay increase reality with the fact that DL's competitors - AA, UA, and WN are all pushing heavily for more and more outsourcing.

No, let's not.

What may or may not be occurring elsewhere doesn't justify the unequal treatment of DL workers by mgmt. At the end of the day, what DL does w/r/t to the ACS pay scales is wrong.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I never said anyone other than pilots got a 20% increase OVER THE SAME PERIOD AS THE PILOTS.

The only spin is that you continue to try to push on issues which no one at DL fails to understand. It is you as an intruder to the conversation that thinks you can manipulate information to try to convince people who aren't even asking.

You still can't produce one shred of evidence of what non-contract employees gave up which is the whole reason the pilots got a larger increase in ONE YEAR than the rest of the employees.

The pilots allowed the equivalent of 10% of DL's mainline fleet to be added as large RJs. No other workgroup gave up anything like it.

I am so glad you trotted out the "you can't give up what you don't have" argument Kev.

If that is true, then why do you allow 700 to argue that the company took away profit sharing? if the employees didn't have it in the first place, then on what basis should they be expected to keep it, let alone improve on it.

Since non-contract employees don't have a right to anything, then how can you not classify the LARGER profit sharing check you received this year as anything BUT a gift from the company? They had no obligation to share anything with you but yet they did.

The pilots are at the end of their contract - and any meaningful raises. There is no certainty they will get anything more.

No, we will discuss what is happening at other airlines because it is completely relevant. You and swamt don't work in a vacuum. what your employers do has to reflect the environment in which those businesses operate.

 

[Kev3188]

No one has gotten 20% by the end of 2014 than the pilots.

Indeed.

And when people say "we want what the pilots get," what they're really saying is that they want a seat at the table, and a voice in the workplace.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL employees not only have a seat at the table, they have multiple seats in the boardroom. To argue that DL's non-contract employees have less than what pilots have is just not supportable.

Tell me again what concessions you gave in order to gain your raise. I must not have heard your answer.

 

[Kev3188]

DL employees not only have a seat at the table, they have multiple seats in the boardroom. To argue that DL's non-contract employees have less than what pilots have is just not supportable.

You're kidding, right?

Just the same, feel free to list what legally binding mechanisms are available to DL non-contract employees when it comes to pay/benefits/work rules.

Here's a hint: FIT, EIG, and the DBC do not apply here.

To argue that we have the same collective voice to affect change that the pilots or DX'ers do is what is in fact not supportable.

Tell me again what concessions you gave in order to gain your raise. I must not have heard your answer.

Bullsh*t. You've heard them over & over across multiple threads through the years.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yet the results are the same regardless of the mechanism that is used.

as for your testy part 2, did you already forget that many DL pilots lost 50% or more of their retirement. No DL non-contract employee lost that and DL pilots have given up many of the same things you have complained about including higher medical costs.

 

[Kev3188]

No, the results are not the same, but do tell us what option you feel non-contract employees have that is equal to the collective bargaining process?

As for part 2: Not testy, just uninterested in (again) addressing a question you know the answer(s) to.

 

[WorldTraveler]

you can't accept that DL mgmt. gives DL non-contract employees what DL mgmt. sees as necessary to reward those employees for their work at rates and policies that are better than their unionized peers at other airlines and on par with what DL pilots get.

Your problem is and always has been that you can't accept that someone else can make a decision for you that really will result in the same or better result as you could get on your own.

There will always be people that think like that and will push for a union even if it means a worse end result. The vast majority of DL employees do not have a need to slam their hand on the table but instead are interested in only achieving the benefits that are as good as their peers within the company and at other airlines.

 

[Kev3188]

you can't accept that DL mgmt. gives DL non-contract employees what DL mgmt. sees as necessary to reward those employees for their work at rates and policies that are better than their unionized peers at other airlines and on par with what DL pilots get.

Translation: DL pays what it feels it needs to in order to maintain autocracy.

And you're right; I do not support that idea.
 

Your problem is and always has been that you can't accept that someone else can make a decision for you that really will result in the same or better result as you could get on your own.

there are 1000's of us who would much prefer to have an actual say int he direction of our careers. You may be comfy with others doing your thinking for you. I am not.
 

There will always be people that think like that and will push for a union even if it means a worse end result. The vast majority of DL employees do not have a need to slam their hand on the table but instead are interested in only achieving the benefits that are as good as their peers within the company and at other airlines.

Nice attempt to frame pro labor people as impetuous...