IAM Stepping Up campaign

[robbedagain]

"unions cannot give employees what the company doesn't have."
 
judging by that last statement you made  so its ok for one set of donkeys to give their pilots 17% raise thru profit sharing etc  but when it comes down to the rest of the groups  its ok to slice one group from 3% to 2%  
 
then at another set of donkeys gives the twu 4.3 percent raises  yet they cant settle anything with the other groups
 
 
what the flip is wrong with this pic
 
clearly  the company has something to give... only they pick and choose who and how much to give

 

[WorldTraveler]

there is a market for labor and it is not the same for every group of employees, as much as you might want to believe otherwise.
 
There is a significant shortage of pilots brewing in the industry.  Regional jet flights are being cancelled by the hundreds in the US because of a pilot shortage.
 
That shortage doesn't exist yet for other airline labor groups.
 
Perhaps it will hit aircraft mechanics next and if it does they will see their pay increase at a faster rate that other labor groups.
 
That is the labor market.... if you want to catch the upside, perhaps you should start working on an A&P now.
 
B6 pilots also are getting healthy pay raises and they aren't unionized so the argument doesn't work that a union makes the difference.
 
The mainline airlines have to increase salaries or they will lose pilots....they are right now pulling pilots from the regional carriers right now.
 
sorry to be the bearer of bad news... but it is the reality.

 

[yoyodyne]

And US is estimated to make more than any other US based airline ever made before, even more than your almighty DL.

Only because its union employees make wages in par when the Wright brothers invented the airplane...

 

[metopower]

Can't wait for the moderator to get back from vacation. Then maybe this will get back to the topics and not about personal attacks.

 

[Kev3188]

Kevin needs to first explain what  a "de facto" B scale is.

Really?

Ok, I'll bite. First, lemme take the phrase "de facto" out, and call it what it really is- a B scale.

At any rate, there are 2 separate pay scales in ACS. One for pre '09 hires, and one for post '09 hires. For those on the latter scale, the mid tier steps are much lower than the former, leading to someone earning thousands less over the same timespan than a pre-09 hire would. Since you still have access to the employee website, you can check them out for yourself, on the ACS home page.

We could take it further, and note the disparity between the 10+ year scale at DL, and the 5 year one my CBA had at NW, but let's keep it simple.


 

DL employees enjoy what they do because DL mgmt runs a very strong business and continues to increase efficiency and revenue generating ability.  Not surprisingly, employees benefit from the strength of the overall finances of the company.

No, DL employees benefit from the value THEY create.
 

Unions cannot give employees what the company doesn't have.

Unions don't "give" anything, anymore than a company does. They negotiate on behalf of an employee group based on the wishes of said people.

 

[737823]

The IAM has lied plenty, saying ready reserves don't get raises and have zero opportunity for advancement. If DL employees believed the IAM would deliver value they would be pursuing the IAM not the other way around. Of all the unions (they all suck) but the IAM sucks the most.

http://vimeo.com/15776615

Josh

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

He will never understand that concept Kev. He does not get that "the union" is the people. When the people let it become "the union" they deserve what they get.

 

[robbedagain]

josh  the iam may suck but gotta tell you  go ask the aa folks about the TWU  and how about UPS with most part timers under the ibt    talk about suck  those 2 unions have worse contracts than the iam

 

[WorldTraveler]

meto,
I'm glad you are following the conversation and will ask you to add any comments regarding the financial hit that pilots - not just at DL but at UA and US - as a result of pension terminations and not just freezes as other DL employees fared.
Can you share as much information as you can to put a perspective on what  you or others lost in ACCRUED pension benefits even after the equity distribution.  Insight on how much has been gained back since emergence would be helpful.  My position is that DL pilots have come nowhere close to replacing what they lost in ACCRUED pension benefits during BK but I honestly want you to tell us one way or the other.
 
Q,
not sure who your "he" is but I get the point about unions representing employees.  Kevin has written repeatedly and eloquently (no I'm not blowing wind up your skirt) on that point and he is right.
 
My point is only that DL employees ARE NOT YET AND MAY NEVER BE represented by unions outside of the existing ones with ALPA, dispatchers, etc.
 
Kev,
your info on the two tier ACS scales is important to note and I want that info to be open... I don't think it is any news to any DL employees, however.
Tell me if I am right, but did the second scale come about the time DL took over ASA's ground handling in ATL? Perhaps I am off but if so those employees still got a raise.
 
I won't defend what DL has done on the basis of JUST.  On the basis of JUSTICE, it isn't.
 
But JUSTICE is not the principle that determines wages or the value of other services in the free enterprise system.  And DL and other US airlines are part of the free enterprise system, not socialism where everyone gets the same thing or the same level of increases.
 
The IAM can try to create pilot envy by arguing that ground employees should get the same pay and benefit increases but ground employees didn't have their pensions terminated and didn't give up scope (ACS employees work mainline and RJ equipment while pilots don't). 
 
The biggest factor, though, is that wages are set by the market and pilots, like mechanics are much more highly skilled and can command higher salaries.  Sorry if that is offensive to anyone but that is the truth.  For the IAM to attempt to argue that they can overcome market realities which airlines aren't about to override is simply disingenuous. 
 
Finally, there is a looming pilot shortage that will force up pilot salaries.  DL pilots got ahead of the game because they nearly effortlessly integrated with their NW counterparts probably faster than any other pilot group has done in a major merger - and that has directly and positively influenced DL's ability to achieve revenue gains by right-sizing aircraft to routes.
 
The cost to DL or another airline if the pilots don't work with the company is far higher than it is for other work groups.
 
I'm not sucking up to any group but simply passing on some basic market realities that will govern compensation.
 
Companies can't give what they don't have to any employee and they will compensate their employees based on their overall compensation and value to the airline.
 
That is not personal, not meant to be offensive, and absolutely affirms the personal worth of people as people. As employees, the free market determines compensation.
 
While addressed to you, those comments incorporate ideas that others have thrown out. 

 

[737823]

josh  the iam may suck but gotta tell you  go ask the aa folks about the TWU  and how about UPS with most part timers under the ibt    talk about suck  those 2 unions have worse contracts than the iam

I'd sooner support the TWU but they both suck. At least TWU members haven't lost seniority to the financial interests of the the union, haven't scabed, and the ATD officials haven't said the members were "confused" voting down the concessions.

Roach lied in the video saying ready reserves get zero benefits, don't get pay increases and have no opportunity for advancement. There are VPs at DL who started their careers as Ready Reserve. They'll never admit it but the IAM secretly loves RR because it means more heads to collect dues from. Besides they facilitated it at Hawaiian and United.

Josh

 

[metopower]

To answer you question you are right on all counts. ALPA was too smart to save the retirement. They were too forward looking and believed that the group would come out better if they took stock and the pbgc .they were wrong and it cost me about 1/2 of my final earnings. But you will never convince them of that. But other airlines learned from what dalpa did and we're able to protect their retirements much better.

 

[robbedagain]

so if companies cannot give to their employees what they don't have  then may be the CEOs and the higher ups should not be at all making anything close to what their making.   companies such as delta PMUS are profitable not only bec of the fees  but the ch 11 did turn them around 

 

[700UW]

The IAM has lied plenty, saying ready reserves don't get raises and have zero opportunity for advancement. If DL employees believed the IAM would deliver value they would be pursuing the IAM not the other way around. Of all the unions (they all suck) but the IAM sucks the most.

http://vimeo.com/15776615

Josh

You arent an IAM member, and you never were so back up your statements.
 
The TWU started concession back in 1983 with the B-scale.
 
And why do you keep lying about the seniority issue?
 
You have been told many times, including the other day that the seniority issue went to arbitration for everyone except the FAs.
 
Like I said, read the Kasher decision and stop lying and the IAM spent over $5 million just on the FAs fighting for their seniority after the APFA pulled the agreement and stapled.

 

[700UW]

I'd sooner support the TWU but they both suck. At least TWU members haven't lost seniority to the financial interests of the the union, haven't scabed, and the ATD officials haven't said the members were "confused" voting down the concessions.

Roach lied in the video saying ready reserves get zero benefits, don't get pay increases and have no opportunity for advancement. There are VPs at DL who started their careers as Ready Reserve. They'll never admit it but the IAM secretly loves RR because it means more heads to collect dues from. Besides they facilitated it at Hawaiian and United.

Josh

Kevin,

Would you please explain Ready Reserve again, thanks, seems someone still does it understand it.

 

[737823]

Ready Reserves do get pay increases, there may not be steps on the pay scale but a raise is a raise. They get NRSA privileges on DL (that's a benefit), opportunity to bid for other opportunities. Roach secretly likes RR because it's more heads to collect dues from.

Josh