IAM Stepping Up campaign

[Kev3188]

This thread has really allowed WT to lay bare all of his prejudices and biases. 
 
Oh, and FWIW, people (that's actual DL employees) are really responding well to these flyers/graphics.

 

[robbedagain]

that's great to hear kev   hopefully when the vote comes in  the iam will rep a large chunk of the delta folks    then we'll see how much more whining and crying wt does!  

 

[Kev3188]

Robbed, I gotta tell ya; support is coming in from all corners. NW, DL. Junior, senior. Line, hub. This is truly a campaign whose time has come. It's refreshing, transparent, and inspiring to watch develop.

 

[robbedagain]

thanks kev   I sure hope the day comes when you say delta folks are officially a member of the iam     then see how much crying over spilled whine with no cheese to go with it  wt does!!  

 

[WorldTraveler]

This thread has really allowed WT to lay bare all of his prejudices and biases. 
 
Oh, and FWIW, people (that's actual DL employees) are really responding well to these flyers/graphics.

and I doubt very much that people who had no interest in unions at DL are all of a sudden interested in them because of the IAM's graphics.....

because the IAM is pulling out data and using it to make a story which doesn't come close to telling the whole story.

DL's FA average salary numbers don't look as high as it does for other airlines because DL is growing, the very same reason why AS FAs rank at the bottom of the list, why B6' numbers are so low (even though it is a young company anyway), and why US FAs appear to have moved backward in salary over the past few years.

You see, because I know full well what is going on at US that I am not going to try to argue that the FAs at US are really moving backward but rather because I know that US has grown its network over the past several years that its average salaries are coming DOWN as it adds new FAs.

If there are DL employees who don't recognize that they will never have the same high AVERAGE salaries as UA employees who are facing a no-growth situation and layoffs along with much smaller profit sharing, then they can only be called the LOW INFORMATION employees that you, Kev, have tried to label some DL employees who have no interest in a union.

IN fact, only a LOW INFORMATION DL employees could fail to understand the context of a statistic such as what 700 and the IAM threw out.

 

[robbedagain]

its soo amazin how you think you know whats going on at us at dl etc  you must be the unofficial spokesman preacher for all of the airlines...   you have not been at dl in yrs  so you have no idea how the majority of the people feel about union vs non union       those graphics that 700 posted are pretty much up to date

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, it's a matter of understanding the industry... it isn't a secret, esp. since airlines provide enormous amounts of data to the US government. The data is not restricted to those who work in the airline industry - and most of the people outside of airline mgmt who interpret the data are not airline employees either.

Sadly, most rank and file workers, including you, don't understand the data.


Some of us actually understand what that data says so we can call BS on those who try to distort it.

700 and the IAM's data represents AVERAGE salaries that are inflated at airlines like AA and UA that quit growing.

And no the data is not up to date. DOT data has only been filed thru 2012 so it doesn't even include changes that took place in BK.

I speak for truth. If you prefer to live in a world made of fantasies that are disconnected from reality, then a nice little farmhouse in the country that has no internet access, electricity, or any other connection with the outside world might be the place for you.



For those of us who prefer to live life with eyes wide open, the simple fact is that DL FAs have no interest in unions despite the attempts at selective presentation of data to convince them they are inferior to other airlines' FAs when the clear fact is that DL employees fare quite well - and have consistently rejected unions for that reason - and will continue to do so.

Perhaps you could give 700 a call and explain why US FA average salaries are GOING DOWN by the very data that he has used to try to argue how poorly DL FAs are doing.

 

[robbedagain]

Your data is not exactly up to date either    and as kev said in a post some eons ago  there is movement 

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not doubting what Kev is saying. It means nothing and can't be verified until there are enough cards to call for an election.

Kev is a good guy and I respect him but he clearly wants to see unions - and that is ok if he finds a majority of his peers who agree with him.

But it doesn't change that the data which 700 and the IAM tried to present here is distorted because it favors carriers that have a lot of senior employees and little growth at the bottom.

That is where UA is now (combined UA/CO) and where AA was until it went into BK. Carriers like DL, AS, and US have been growing which pushes down the averages.

DL employees understand the principle while 700 and the IAM want to try to convince a few LOW INFORMATION employees using a data snapshot that has little meaning in real life.

And neither you or 700 apparently want to explain why US FAs according to his/IAM data are GOING BACKWARDS.

But I have said exactly why and everyone else knows it too and it is because of GROWTH that is bringing in more lower seniority/lower paid employees, not because senior FAs at US are taking paycuts.

700 also doesn't want to admit that AS' FA salaries are distorted in the graphs he presented not only because AS is a high-growth airline but also because AS, like DL, has a well above average percentage of its compensation that comes from profit sharing.

Not one of the DL or AS employees returned their profit sharing check to the company because it wasn't guaranteed compensation so they didn't want it.

 

[robbedagain]

bec the us fa when they signed their deal  they got snap backs higher wages etc 

 

[Kev3188]

and I doubt very much that people who had no interest in unions at DL are all of a sudden interested in them because of the IAM's graphics.....

No, they're interested because of mgmt. actions (or inactions). Flyers/graphics are simply reinforcing that.




 
 

Sadly, most rank and file workers, including you, don't understand the data.

Condescend much?


 

700 and the IAM's data represents AVERAGE salaries...

Would you prefer they use TOS salary info like DL does? How 'bout step one numbers?

 

I speak for truth.

...And like clockwork, here it is...

No, you are trying to craft the narrative you want people to see then masquerade it as "the truth."

The idea that you're just this pragmatic guy interested in fleshing out a full picture is disproved every time you have one of these apoplectic fits in a labor thread.

Know what the difference between people like Robbed & 700 and you is? They're not afraid to wear their allegiance(s) on their sleeves. Neither am I. Hell, neither are people on the other side of the aislelike E.

IOW, they're authentic. You should try it sometime.


 

 

[WorldTraveler]

Adequate data would include actual SCALE data (which has sometimes been presented here) but would also include profit sharing and other incentive salary such as operational rewards but also include union dues and medical insurance data.

There is nothing wrong with data based on averages but there are a number of statistical measures that show how close a population is to the average. Most of that kind of data is not known - but not including disclaimers is sloppy and doesn't begin to tell the whole story.

I am not trying to tell any story except the truth. If DL employees are not really at the top of the list, then I can accept that - obviously DL employees can too. But to intentionally exclude key information such as how many new entry FAs have been added at AS, DL, and US over the past few years while using a number like averages is nothing short of sloppy.

Again, Kev, I have no problem if DL employees choose unions or decide that DL mgmt is not treating them as well as they could be treated elsewhere.

BUt I am not going to sit by while distorted data is thrown out or when clear union biases such as exists against profit sharing exclude that compensation from being included in the totals.

If the cards are really coming in like you say they are, then there should be votes scheduled by now. But with ALL due respect, you have been saying that for years.

 

[Kev3188]

Adequate data would include actual SCALE data (which has sometimes been presented here) but would also include profit sharing and other incentive salary such as operational rewards but also include union dues and medical insurance data.

They do. Where have you been?

BTW, what will you say if the data shows that DL employees pay much more for their coverage than their counterparts at US or UA do?
 

There is nothing wrong with data based on averages but there are a number of statistical measures that show how close a population is to the average. Most of that kind of data is not known - but not including disclaimers is sloppy and doesn't begin to tell the whole story.

Your attempt to discredit is duly noted.
 

I am not trying to tell any story except the truth.

Of course.
 

Again, Kev, I have no problem if DL employees choose unions or decide that DL mgmt is not treating them as well as they could be treated elsewhere.

Your posts state otherwise. Let's get real here; you have a BIG problem with the idea of any group at DL securing representation. The fact that you have to watch from the cheap seats is just salt in the wound.

 

[WorldTraveler]

my attempts (successful) at showing the truth is what you should see....

Sure, you can point out the additional costs that DL employees pay for insurance and medical. DL itself tells you its goal for what percentage of medical cost sharing between employer and employee that DL uses. Every company has a percentage that it uses and DL's average for health care cost sharing is comparable to US industry, not US airlines.

Throw that data in.

But make sure you also include that DL employees earn the equivalent of more than a month's Worth of additional salary in profit sharing which the IAM refuses to acknowlege. I don't think it is possible for that extra profit sharing to come close to overcoming the increased medical costs.

no, Kev, I have no problem with any DL employee group seeking representation if that is what they want. Read what I write, not what you think I write.

I am NOT going to allow manipulated data to be used by some to make a case which is not intellectually defensible.

 

[700UW]

I am not trying to tell any story except the truth.

Again, Kev, I have no problem if DL employees choose unions or decide that DL mgmt is not treating them as well as they could be treated elsewhere.

BUt I am not going to sit by while distorted data is thrown out or when clear union biases such as exists against profit sharing exclude that compensation from being included in the totals.

If the cards are really coming in like you say they are, then there should be votes scheduled by now. But with ALL due respect, you have been saying that for years.

You wouldnt know the truth if it smacked you in the face.
 
The data is from the BTS, you know the same place you use to say how great DL is and you try and discredit it when it doesnt fit your agenda.
 
You claim to speak for DL Employees you have been called out on it several times or more on the board.
 
You ignore the facts and truth when it shows the that DL actual employees want a union and are in the midst of a grassroots campaign.
 
And you insult and attack anyone who is pro-union, so you obviously have a problem with actual DL employees who want a say in the work place and not have their pay, benefits and other things changed at DL's whim.
 
So been to any breakrooms or galleys lately?