IAM Stepping Up campaign
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southwind
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- Jan 22, 2008
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WN has line mechanics and someone will always make more than someone else ( not really something I lose sleep over, as some do, trying to compare themselves to pilots).Glenn Quagmire said:
Wonder how that "Layoff protection" works during BK..................and at one point in time DL never had a layoff..................never say never!
Kev3188
Veteran
Yes.yoyodyne said:
Who's to say it wouldn't? It's a bit early for all that, though.southwind said:
My example was in response to a poster that claimed union people have less take home pay, and to show that my experience didn't reflect that.
WorldTraveler
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of course the labor movement is fighting for its financial life in the face of decreasing membership and, in the airline industry, mergers that will most certainly reduce the number of union-represented employees.
Kev,
glad you managed to break the law of averages - you should think about a career in Vegas - but it doesn't change that average compensation at union represented airlines has moved upwards far, far slower than it has at DL.
Everyone is seeing health care cost increases. Unions have been just as ineffective at addressing the increase in costs to all Americans as any other type of organization.
Unions might limit what employees have to pay out of pocket but workers are paying for it elsewhere in their compensation.
There is not only no free lunch but healthcare in the US is getting more and more expensive even as quality declines.
Everyone pays. Union status hasn't and won't have any effect.
Kev,
glad you managed to break the law of averages - you should think about a career in Vegas - but it doesn't change that average compensation at union represented airlines has moved upwards far, far slower than it has at DL.
Everyone is seeing health care cost increases. Unions have been just as ineffective at addressing the increase in costs to all Americans as any other type of organization.
Unions might limit what employees have to pay out of pocket but workers are paying for it elsewhere in their compensation.
There is not only no free lunch but healthcare in the US is getting more and more expensive even as quality declines.
Everyone pays. Union status hasn't and won't have any effect.
Kev3188
Veteran
For anyone with coverage, my case was the rule, not the exception.
Kev3188
Veteran
You'll have to ask an employee of one of those companies...
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And from reading around I only see Swissport unionized at LAS.
And the unionized ground workers do better than their non-union counterparts.
See he cant stick to the topic of the debate so he has to constantly change the subject.
And in regard to the profit sharing, the FAs are realizing how much they actually lost due to the reduction to 10% and have also realized they funded their own raise.
And the unionized ground workers do better than their non-union counterparts.
See he cant stick to the topic of the debate so he has to constantly change the subject.
And in regard to the profit sharing, the FAs are realizing how much they actually lost due to the reduction to 10% and have also realized they funded their own raise.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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no, the FAs did not lose anything due to the reduction in the profit sharing percentage.
DL wasn't going to pay profit sharing to the pilots or any other group at the 15% rate they had paid before. They knew they were entering a period when profits would continue to grow and it was no longer viable to continue to pay profit sharing at the percentage it had been paid before.
you can't argue that DL is free to change the terms of employment for non-contract employees and then argue that they lost anything when DL does exactly that.
You can't argue that DL employees are at will and then also accept the larger pay (in this case the total profit sharing) that the company actually provided.
If DL reduced profit sharing percentage and then the total profit sharing went down, then there would be a point. But that didn't happen.
DL is able to move the pieces of compensation around but the simple fact is that DL employee pay growth is growing faster than at any other airline - and no union could or has been able to duplicate that elsewhere.
If the Swissport employees think they can get a better deal by being unionized, then they too should pursue it.
DL wasn't going to pay profit sharing to the pilots or any other group at the 15% rate they had paid before. They knew they were entering a period when profits would continue to grow and it was no longer viable to continue to pay profit sharing at the percentage it had been paid before.
you can't argue that DL is free to change the terms of employment for non-contract employees and then argue that they lost anything when DL does exactly that.
You can't argue that DL employees are at will and then also accept the larger pay (in this case the total profit sharing) that the company actually provided.
If DL reduced profit sharing percentage and then the total profit sharing went down, then there would be a point. But that didn't happen.
DL is able to move the pieces of compensation around but the simple fact is that DL employee pay growth is growing faster than at any other airline - and no union could or has been able to duplicate that elsewhere.
If the Swissport employees think they can get a better deal by being unionized, then they too should pursue it.
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Yes they did lose, you are obstinate, getting only 10% is less than the 15%, and Delta unilaterally changed it.
Larger pay?
So when are you going to show us with facts that someone else besides the pilots will be getting almost a 20% increase from June of 2012 till the end of 2014, and increased contributions to their DCP?
No your pay growth lags behind WN, and its pay restoration, since all groups who arent unionized are still making less than when Delta filed Chapter 11.
Increases in Medical and Copays are taking away any pay restoration.
See actual Delta employees are posting the facts, not some retiree.
Larger pay?
So when are you going to show us with facts that someone else besides the pilots will be getting almost a 20% increase from June of 2012 till the end of 2014, and increased contributions to their DCP?
No your pay growth lags behind WN, and its pay restoration, since all groups who arent unionized are still making less than when Delta filed Chapter 11.
Increases in Medical and Copays are taking away any pay restoration.
See actual Delta employees are posting the facts, not some retiree.
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- #672
Regional Carriers dont make wages like mainline, thats a fact in all work groups, Pilots, FAs, Ramp, CSA, and Mechanics.737823 said:
And compare union pay rates to non-union along with benefits and you will see who makes more, that would be unionized carriers.
And glad to see once again you go off topic, I could have sworn I posted about the losses that the Delta employees have suffered, not about the IAM, a ramp service company or regional carriers.
How about all the jobs lost when Delta shutdown Comair?
Leadership 7.5 and Operation Clockwork.
WorldTraveler
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- #673
Pay growth for DL employees since DL emerged from Bk far exceeds what WN or any other airline grows.
We all know that DL and every other legacy carrier has filed for BK. WN hasn't.
DL employees can't change the fact that the company filed for BK and cut wages like every other legacy carrier even though DOT data shows that DL's total compensation cuts during the period from 9/11 to the exit of BK for NW (the last of the 4 that filed for BK) were less for DL employees than for other carriers.
Kev can pipe up and say he fared better and that is great - he can thank AMFA for their failed strike strategy that allowed NW to achieve the majority of its cost reduction goals from its highest paid non-pilot work group. The rest of the company benefitted from AMFA's failure.
You can't separate the total cost reductions at NW including AMFA from what happened at other carriers. ON that basis, the order of cuts among the carriers who filed for BK was that DL employees fared the best followed by NW with UA and US employees suffering the most.
I have repeatedly linked references to the MIT airline data project which uses DOT data but you either can't sort it out or refuse to accept the answers in it.
If you want to talk about regional carrier job losses and cuts, then include contract carriers at other carriers. just because Comair was wholly owned doesn't mean that their employees bore the brunt of what happened and other carriers do not because of contract cuts at other carriers.
The data is all there... you either don't want to use it because it won't support your point or you are incapable of doing so.
We all know that DL and every other legacy carrier has filed for BK. WN hasn't.
DL employees can't change the fact that the company filed for BK and cut wages like every other legacy carrier even though DOT data shows that DL's total compensation cuts during the period from 9/11 to the exit of BK for NW (the last of the 4 that filed for BK) were less for DL employees than for other carriers.
Kev can pipe up and say he fared better and that is great - he can thank AMFA for their failed strike strategy that allowed NW to achieve the majority of its cost reduction goals from its highest paid non-pilot work group. The rest of the company benefitted from AMFA's failure.
You can't separate the total cost reductions at NW including AMFA from what happened at other carriers. ON that basis, the order of cuts among the carriers who filed for BK was that DL employees fared the best followed by NW with UA and US employees suffering the most.
I have repeatedly linked references to the MIT airline data project which uses DOT data but you either can't sort it out or refuse to accept the answers in it.
If you want to talk about regional carrier job losses and cuts, then include contract carriers at other carriers. just because Comair was wholly owned doesn't mean that their employees bore the brunt of what happened and other carriers do not because of contract cuts at other carriers.
The data is all there... you either don't want to use it because it won't support your point or you are incapable of doing so.
Kev3188
Veteran
Not one? You sure?
This is a rather cyncial line of thinking coming from you. I happen to agree with it, but it's interesting nonetheless.
Of course you can. That you personally choose not to does not void the premise itself.
Maybe not this year, but what happens when the industry cycles downward again?
Indeed.
...And up...and down...and unilaterally...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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Kev,
I'm sure it comes as a susprise to you, but we are actually more on the same page regarding the dynamics of what exists at DL than you think. The difference is the perspective with which we both see it.
DL and every other company knows full well what they intend to pay their employees, including benefits.
DL knew full well that the increases in compensation for DL employees exceeds that of any other airline since DL emerged from BK and merged.
The premise cannot be BOTH that DL can cut whatever it wants and then for DL employees to continue to exceed their peers in compensation.
I know it absolutely grates on your ears to hear it said, but DL knows what its employees want and is capable of providing what they want and doing it better than what unions could provide.
Yes, DL uses its profits to achieve its objectives to achieve its goals, and that includes in keeping unions out. But the employees WIN anyway and DL has paid far more than just what it would take to keep the unions out, if the basis of comparison is what other airline employees receive.
The only difference between now and the past is that DL is competitively exceeding far more than any of its peers that it has more levers to move to the benefit of its employees, who really don't care how the money gets to them... they just want in.
and before you talk about QOL or other non-compensation issues, I respect that you have that perspective and that perhaps others have the same. But the vast majority of people in the workforce are motivated first and foremost by money. Even if there are cultural issues which are significantly different at other airlines, the vast majority of people can adapt to them because they are within the norm of what other companies do. There are precious few people anywhere who will compromise their own finances in order to improve QOL.
I'm sure it comes as a susprise to you, but we are actually more on the same page regarding the dynamics of what exists at DL than you think. The difference is the perspective with which we both see it.
DL and every other company knows full well what they intend to pay their employees, including benefits.
DL knew full well that the increases in compensation for DL employees exceeds that of any other airline since DL emerged from BK and merged.
The premise cannot be BOTH that DL can cut whatever it wants and then for DL employees to continue to exceed their peers in compensation.
I know it absolutely grates on your ears to hear it said, but DL knows what its employees want and is capable of providing what they want and doing it better than what unions could provide.
Yes, DL uses its profits to achieve its objectives to achieve its goals, and that includes in keeping unions out. But the employees WIN anyway and DL has paid far more than just what it would take to keep the unions out, if the basis of comparison is what other airline employees receive.
The only difference between now and the past is that DL is competitively exceeding far more than any of its peers that it has more levers to move to the benefit of its employees, who really don't care how the money gets to them... they just want in.
and before you talk about QOL or other non-compensation issues, I respect that you have that perspective and that perhaps others have the same. But the vast majority of people in the workforce are motivated first and foremost by money. Even if there are cultural issues which are significantly different at other airlines, the vast majority of people can adapt to them because they are within the norm of what other companies do. There are precious few people anywhere who will compromise their own finances in order to improve QOL.
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