IAM Stepping Up campaign

[WorldTraveler]

given that Parker managed to operate major portions of HP/US as two separate airlines for years, why should he succumb to union "demands" now given that the network and financial aspects of the merger can proceed with or without labor?

You and other AA/US labor groups are counting on seeing huge increases but the UA/CO and US/HP mergers prove you can operate two separate airlines.

there comes a point when there are costs to NOT integrate the operation but it is equally true that there are significant costs to do so. It is far from certain that the demands of labor and the benefits Parker will see will cross at a place where he is willing to pay.

The chances are real high that AA/US labor will quickly watch their peers at DL continue to get larger pay raises while Parker leaves AA/US labor frustrated and underpaid.

History is by far the biggest gauge of what is to come.

 

[swamt]

no, it isn't even the MAIN reason.

the SOLE reason is because DL knows like WN that well-paid employees relative to their peers are happy and productive employees who help the company win.

and you still haven't explained why with your logic WN employees get what they do.

And if your logic really is true, then the unions can just hang it up in their attempts to unionize DL employees because they will never succeed.... no one is going to walk away from superior pay and benefits and if the company can make the finances work to keep DL employees well paid, the unions will always be at a disadvantage.

further, if your theory is true, then there is no reason for unionized airlines to pay their employees anywhere close to what DL employees have.

in fact, DL's peer airlines are undoubtedly happy to see DL employees paid as much.

other than being unable to explain why WN employees have what they have, your theory makes a lot of sense... and is the confirmed end of the line for the labor movement's efforts at DL.

Believe what you will as I see you have the co blinders on.  It is fact that Delta has givin raises in the past to throw off union drives.  It has happened a few times to mechanics alone.  And if Delta was treating their employees so well with pay then why are 18-24 year veterans leaving on their own and starting over at SWA and AA? Or leaving the industry all together?  
" no one is going to walk away from superior pay and benefits and if the company can make the finances work to keep DL employees well paid, the unions will always be at a disadvantage."
 
As you state yourself, the unions will always be at a disadvantage, directly tied to the wages being paid and raises giviv.  We have an abundance of X-Delta employees on the floor, and all of them have said that Delta does give raises on a regular basis when unions try to get drives to come in.  They also say Delta will spend millions trying to keep their employees informed about unions during any certain raids that might be going on.  You can believe what ever you want and keep the blinders on if you so desire.  If the employees of Delta start their union search once again, which I would highly suggest, then watch what happens.  F/A's and mechanics need to protect themselves better prior to any future movement or mergers.  I'm not making any of this up WT, it is all information coming from current and former Delta employees...

 

[robbedagain]

it comes down to whether parker wants/wanted a potential strike that could cause damages  but the FACT is that for FSA the union got just about everything they wanted    You on the other hand just simply hate unions plain n simple   its pretty typical of mgmt. type people like you to disregard unions

 

[WorldTraveler]

swamt,
we can debate it all day long but do the DL employees really care the reason?

NO.

for whatever reason, they are the best paid legacy airline employees in the US and are receiving pay and benefit increases faster than ANY other employees, including those at WN.

You are free to believe the reason for it but the DL employees are the beneficiaries regardless.

and I'm not sure that the unions can do anything about if even if you are right.

robbed,
Parker is playing with a different set of employees than just at US but he was a master at keeping the lid on labor discontent while on average paying US employees below their peers at other airlines based on publicly available data.

It is hardly a stretch to believe that the ex-creditors are counting on Parker pulling off the same magic at AA/US.

 

[737823]

it comes down to whether parker wants/wanted a potential strike that could cause damages  but the FACT is that for FSA the union got just about everything they wanted    You on the other hand just simply hate unions plain n simple   its pretty typical of mgmt. type people like you to disregard unions

Didn't get retro, effectively rewarding the company's bad behavior dragging their feet. See DL employees have gotten raises all this time you have been stuck.

Josh

 

[swamt]

How can the Alliance that isnt even in effect causing anything?
 
There is an Alliance Agreement, it hasnt been voted on, so technically there is no Alliance and they are not doing anything as they cant now as they legally dont represent anyone.

He was speaking figuratively and you know that.  He is pointing out that the 2 unions (TWU and IAM) once they are together and form this Alliance, look at what they will continue to do.  We all know that the alliance is not formed yet, but everyone can continuously see how things will go if they were to vote for it and I don't know of anyone that will.  I am hearing all NO's, or against alliance.  If the TWU was smart they would cancel and pull out of this alliance vote.  But, also like I have said, I am very confident it will not get to the alliance vote. The best thing the mechs at AA could do is fire the TWU and bring in AMFA.  Then after merger, and after the IAM guys over at US watch how well AMFA represents the AA'ers and keeps them informed, involved, and of course uses the members input during the merger process, they will be more inclined to also move over to AMFA with the majority at AA.  And before anybody throws the scare tactics out there,  NO!!!  The US guys will not lose their pensions.  That would be like saying you will lose your PS and 401K's just for changing unions,  ain't gonna happen folks,  it cannot happen, period.

 

[swamt]

swamt,
we can debate it all day long but do the DL employees really care the reason?

NO.

for whatever reason, they are the best paid legacy airline employees in the US and are receiving pay and benefit increases faster than ANY other employees, including those at WN.

You are free to believe the reason for it but the DL employees are the beneficiaries regardless.

and I'm not sure that the unions can do anything about if even if you are right.

robbed,
Parker is playing with a different set of employees than just at US but he was a master at keeping the lid on labor discontent while on average paying US employees below their peers at other airlines based on publicly available data.

It is hardly a stretch to believe that the ex-creditors are counting on Parker pulling off the same magic at AA/US.

There is no debating WT.  Kev has already verified what I have said.  Move on it's over.  And yes it is the main reason...

 

[WorldTraveler]

so what difference does it really make and what recourse does labor really have if your theory is true?

who wouldn't want to be in the middle of a spending war between two parties?

DL people win regardless of the reason.

thanks for helping confirm that their best strategy is to "JUST SAY NO"

 

[Kev3188]

History is by far the biggest gauge of what is to come.

If that's true, then given the current trajectory in this country, we can expect the return of the Robber Baron soon. Fantastic.

...And anti worker advocates will be right there to applaud just like they always are...
 
 

swamt,
we can debate it all day long but do the DL employees really care the reason?

Translation= "I got nothing."


 
 

There is no debating WT.  Kev has already verified what I have said.  Move on it's over.  And yes it is the main reason...

Exactly. Of course it's the main reason.

But acknowledging that also means acknowledging that DL isn't necessarily the aviation Xanadu WT wants you to think it is. Rather, it is in many ways just like every other company-and we can't have that now, can we?
 
 

so what difference does it really make and what recourse does labor really have if your theory is true?

See above.
 

 

[WorldTraveler]

Xanadu, no.

perhaps you can tell us what other airlines anywhere close to the size of DL are 80% non-union - including foreign airlines if unions are allowed in their home country.

I'm sure it will be a cold day in Manaus before we agree that government policies are doing more to undermine the American dream for the middle class but it might be worth considering that more people will benefit by changes in Washington than thru unions who companies have been given the green light to run roughshod over.

no, Kev, I am not anti-worker.

I am FOR what works and for fixing the problems that cause problems instead of laying blame where it does no good or expecting miracles that won't succeed.

 

[Kev3188]

no, Kev, I am not anti-worker.

Oh no, of course not.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kevin,

I am truly disappointed you see me as either anti-worker or anti-union and perhaps both.

I am neither.

I am for what succeeds.

In the case of DL, I said five years ago (almost six) that I expected that the result of the representation elections post merger would be that those groups would retain their longtime premerger DL choice of being non-union.

It is because DL has had a different way of doing business from nearly every other airline in the industry - again not just in the US - that DL has been able for 85 years to be a largely non-union airline.

That doesn't mean that unions aren't necessary at other airlines nor have I ever said that they haven't helped workers at those airlines to achieve things which mgmt. wouldn't have otherwise provided. in fact, I have specifically noted failures of airline mgmts. at other airlines that have resulted in unionization as the necessary outcome.

The labor discussions about which I involve myself on this forum regard Delta because I understand that company.

I truly hope you will understand my comments as specific to Delta and based on what I have seen.

My comments regarding labor in the rest of America is based on pragmatic observations.

all the best to you in all you pursue.

 

[robbedagain]

your posts suggest you are an anti union..  

 

[WorldTraveler]

sorry but since there have been misinterpretations of discussions that have nothing to do with labor as well, it would appear that we would all benefit from a good face to face chat.

I am not anti-union.

I do recognize and have said that I do not believe unions are the answer for DL employees and the votes there have confirmed that to be correct.

in the general industry, I fully recognize that some mgmt. teams would have treated and paid employees far less if it weren't for unions - but no one can deny the adversarial relationship that has historically existed between labor and mgmt. at most US airlines.

 

[Kev3188]

Kevin,

I am truly disappointed you see me as either anti-worker or anti-union and perhaps both.

I am neither.

The body of work you've created during your "10 year internet career" says otherwise.