IAM Stepping Up campaign

[Kev3188]

Indeed. But I do engage with DL employees of whom the overwhelming majority are friendly, professional, and take pride in their airline and service.

You act like that is a revelation...

I've said it before; pro labor or not, people generally leave that stuff at the proverbial door


 
 
 

Don't engage much with F/As who have IAM pins..

Why not?


 

...but to their credit I haven't found their service to be deficient in anyway, they get the job done with a smile.

Again, this shouldn't be a surprise...

 

[southwind]

Wow! The FA's voting down union representation, really kicked the hornets nest called "Pro-Union"!

 

[southwind]

 

And your posting this on a DL thread because......................

To inform. The fact of the matter is that eventually there will be just about no one left in the airline industry who isn't organized.
 
And the DL FA's did their talking with their votes!

And they more than likely will again.

Anytime time I bring another company into the picture here, 700 has a stroke and so be it if they're the only ones not organized......majority rules!
 
And you are correct, unions will be beating at the doors again in a couple of years, looking for more dues paying members to help maintain their golf course and private jet!

 
 

Why not?


They did. And with such a razor thin margin for such a large group, the message was that it's a very divided workforce.

Wonder exactly where that line of division is drawn................hmmm?  Ex-NW/ DL maybe?

 

[southwind]

I will tell you that I prefer articulate conversation that favors honesty over deliberate deception or hostile debate that is only meant to win over a particular argument over actual reality or facts.

I also don't like when particular items are either ignored or glossed over for the continuation of something that can only end in being a futile waste of my time.

You have completely ignored or glossed over many items that have been presented to you by myself and others that at least to me show an obvious ambition to win over your point of view at whatever cost that may be.

Are you talking about the "Glossed over" IAM rainbow and unicorn world, that you and 700 propogate, without mentioning the negative things the IAM has done to it' own members?

 

[WeAAsles]

Are you talking about the "Glossed over" IAM rainbow and unicorn world, that you and 700 propogate, without mentioning the negative things the IAM has done to it' own members?

To say that every long term established Union doesn't have some type of paper trail of shames behind it would be disingenuous so I wouldn't even try to sell it. But for me I look at the much much larger picture of what they have done just being in existence period. Those facts are very well documented and researcheable.

The reality is though when talking about a company like Delta any improvements they give their employees over much smaller non union competitors is ABSOLUTELY because of the advantages that Union members have progressed to over the course of their history within our industry. NONE of you can deny that fact!

Supermarkets pay crap wages because they are not heavily unionized. They are the exact opposite in our industry so that's where the benefits come from. Particularly FA's and Fleet have overall no more of an education than Supermarket workers by PERCENTAGE.

So as an individual do I have a motivation for wanting to see our industry even more heavily organized than it is now? Of course I do. If the entire industry was 100% organized by only a small handfull of labor organizations compensation would increase dramatically. And with the musical chairs of the US Airline industry pretty much over, passengers will be the ones to put their money in my pocket.

I want their money.

 

 

[Force Majeure]

it shows once again the very low quality of people that exist in the labor movement.

You paint with a very broad brush their Doctor. You do realize that you just slighted the entire Delta pilot workforce with your ignorance Doctor.

 

[WorldTraveler]

To say that every long term established Union doesn't have some type of paper trail of shames behind it would be disingenuous so I wouldn't even try to sell it. But for me I look at the much much larger picture of what they have done just being in existence period. Those facts are very well documented and researcheable.

The reality is though when talking about a company like Delta any improvements they give their employees over much smaller non union competitors is ABSOLUTELY because of the advantages that Union members have progressed to over the course of their history within our industry. NONE of you can deny that fact!

Supermarkets pay crap wages because they are not heavily unionized. They are the exact opposite in our industry so that's where the benefits come from. Particularly FA's and Fleet have overall no more of an education than Supermarket workers by PERCENTAGE.

So as an individual do I have a motivation for wanting to see our industry even more heavily organized than it is now? Of course I do. If the entire industry was 100% organized by only a small handfull of labor organizations compensation would increase dramatically. And with the musical chairs of the US Airline industry pretty much over, passengers will be the ones to put their money in my pocket.

I want their money.

 
except that DL has a history of paying above average wages compared to other airlines even during the regulated era.

it's hard to argue that DL is the follower when DL actually went first.

Also, many supermarkets are indeed unionized.

you can find the percentage of the traditional grocery workforce that is unionized but remember that the percentage of the unionized workforce in the US outside of government is PRETTY small.

You paint with a very broad brush their Doctor. You do realize that you just slighted the entire Delta pilot workforce with your ignorance Doctor.

union members and leaders of the union movement are not the same thing.  
 

I will tell you that I prefer articulate conversation that favors honesty over deliberate deception or hostile debate that is only meant to win over a particular argument over actual reality or facts.

I also don't like when particular items are either ignored or glossed over for the continuation of something that can only end in being a futile waste of my time.

You have completely ignored or glossed over many items that have been presented to you by myself and others that at least to me show an obvious ambition to win over your point of view at whatever cost that may be.

in principle, I agree with you.

I haven't ignored anything.

I have said that you have asked for data or tried to make a point which is not supported by known facts.

I can't do that.

I will tell you that I prefer articulate conversation that favors honesty over deliberate deception or hostile debate that is only meant to win over a particular argument over actual reality or facts.

I also don't like when particular items are either ignored or glossed over for the continuation of something that can only end in being a futile waste of my time.

You have completely ignored or glossed over many items that have been presented to you by myself and others that at least to me show an obvious ambition to win over your point of view at whatever cost that may be.

 

[Kev3188]

Wonder exactly where that line of division is drawn................hmmm?  Ex-NW/ DL maybe?

Keep on drivin' that wedge- you're doing a great job!

BTW, you exposed to a lot of paint fumes in that back shop of yours?

 

[WeAAsles]

 
except that DL has a history of paying above average wages compared to other airlines even during the regulated era.

it's hard to argue that DL is the follower when DL actually went first.

So you can provide me with hard data that actually substantiates your assertion dating back to Delta operational commencement June 17, 1929; 85 years ago? American Airlines commenced operation in 1934 and All American Aviation that commenced operations in 1939. This is not even factoring so many other airlines that have came and went in the history of American Aviation.

Also, many supermarkets are indeed unionized.

Very few actually. And certainly not enough to offset the cost from competition in regards to raising wages.

you can find the percentage of the traditional grocery workforce that is unionized but remember that the percentage of the unionized workforce in the US outside of government is PRETTY small.

Correct. The Private sector is currently down to roughly 6% and there is a direct correlation between the lowering of average wages by PERCENTAGE to inflation in conjunction with the decline of Union membership rates. Government data supports that fact.

union members and leaders of the union movement are not the same thing.  
 

in principle, I agree with you.

I haven't ignored anything.

I have said that you have asked for data or tried to make a point which is not supported by known facts.

I can't do that.

Then it is basically impossible to have this conversation with you if you can't acknowledge a basic rule of mathematics, which is PERCENTAGES.

Let's say their are 5 police officers in the employ of small town WIDGET New York. For many years the town only employed 1 officer but population growth caused the need to hire 4 more. Now officer 1 by his salary and years is making 100k per year. The 4 new officers are only hired in at 30k to start. Can we genuinely and honestly say or claim that the town of WIDGET pays their officers 100k per year? 

Of course not. And that's what makes averages and PERCENTAGES such an important measure to gain true value.
 

 

[WorldTraveler]

you missed the point.

I said that trying to say that the way the labor movement works is not the same thing as saying the way union members work.

the two are not the same.

not sure what percentages you seem to think we differ on but perhaps it is that you keep harping on this notion of X percentage of people at the top making a certain amount of money which means there are so many at the bottom which clearly must be drawing poverty wages.

is this the issue?

in fact, I said I have no evidence to show payroll data by salary step and I don't think you do either... you are using seniority lists which is a reasonable proxy at a company where there is little movement between depts.

that isn't true at DL.

but your point is still invalidated by the fact that DL employees still make higher average salaries and yet you claim that there are more of them as RRs or part-time.

I don't have data that goes back to 1929 but DL has long paid its employees above industry average; that is precisely why the unions can't break DL because DL controls the purse strings.

 

[robbedagain]

yes they do control  just like that ps sharing too 

 

[Kev3188]

yes they do control  just like that ps sharing too

They control everything.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and yet DL employees believe they give enough to satisfy their "needs"

so, some people want a union so they think they can be in control while others are willing to have less control but end up better off because of it.

It's not hard to see why the vast majority of people can subject their own need to be in control in order to obtain greater benefits not only for themselves but also for the company.

 

[WeAAsles]

you missed the point.

I said that trying to say that the way the labor movement works is not the same thing as saying the way union members work.

the two are not the same.

They are one and the same since you cannot separate the two. Anyone who is a union member is part of the movement irregardless of his or hers particular level of participation.

not sure what percentages you seem to think we differ on but perhaps it is that you keep harping on this notion of X percentage of people at the top making a certain amount of money which means there are so many at the bottom which clearly must be drawing poverty wages.

This is the first time you have even acknowledge the word PERCENTAGES. And on the second part, absolutely not. I'm sure there is a wide area between Poverty wages and exorbitant wages within the company no different than at AA.

is this the issue?

YES. Looking at the top rate only doesn't creat a true and accurate picture since ALL wages among different workgroups are on a sliding scale.

in fact, I said I have no evidence to show payroll data by salary step and I don't think you do either... you are using seniority lists which is a reasonable proxy at a company where there is little movement between depts.

that isn't true at DL.

Of course it's true for those who are on the SCALE that I have for DL BASE WAGE rates at DL. Of course those who hired on Jan 01, 09 and later are not on that scale. Not at all speaking of however many are a part of the RR travesty. 

but your point is still invalidated by the fact that DL employees still make higher average salaries and yet you claim that there are more of them as RRs or part-time.

Your comment says DL EMPLOYEES. That does not specify WHICH employees? Neither of us can prove our claim when it comes to non union workers or management personnel by PERCENTAGES of the whole. So our entire argument on both sides is invalidated, null and void and has to be left to the individual reader to decide.

I don't have data that goes back to 1929 but DL has long paid its employees above industry average; that is precisely why the unions can't break DL because DL controls the purse strings.

"long paid its employees"

Which employees is the $100,000 question?

 

[robbedagain]

wt is!   lol