IAM Stepping Up campaign

[WeAAsles]

Colin Gordon is Professor of History at the University of Iowa and a Senior Research Consultant at the Iowa Policy Project

But in 1935, the New Deal granted workers basic collective bargaining rights; over the next decade, union membership grew dramatically, followed by an equally dramatic decline in income inequality. This yielded an era of broadly shared prosperity, running from the 1940s into the 1970s. After that, however, unions came under attack—in the workplace, in the courts, and in public policy. As a result, union membership has fallen and income inequality has worsened—reaching levels not seen since the 1920s.

http://www.epi.org/blog/union-decline-rising-inequality-charts/

 

[WeAAsles]

The response, filed in U.S. District Court in Dallas, was Southwest’s answer to a lawsuit filed Tuesday by the Transport Workers Union.
TWU Local 555 asked the court to bar Southwest from declaring an emergency and from requiring employees to justify their use of sick leave. The union said the actions weren’t allowed in the TWU’s contract with Southwest.
The union classified the disagreement as a major dispute that should be decided in court. But the airline argued that it was a minor dispute that should go to arbitration.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/airline-industry/20140116-southwest-airlines-defends-making-union-members-prove-illness.ece

What would have happened had this been Non Union DL employees rather than those who had avenues to seek remedy's for what the workers deemed to be harassment?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Earnings

In 2013, among full-time wage and salary workers, union members had median
usual weekly earnings of $950, while those who were not union members had
median weekly earnings of $750. In addition to coverage by a collective
bargaining agreement, this earnings difference reflects a variety of
influences, including variations in the distributions of union members and
nonunion employees by occupation, industry, firm size, or geographic region.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

I presume your interest is in proving the justification for unions.

I have never doubted it.

The reality is that companies are not going to pay for any product or service, including labor, on a sustained basis at prices that are above market.

The problem for labor is that companies in the US have enormous power to do what is best for their investors, often which is contrary to the interests of labor.

but all of that still doesn't change that DL employees make as much or more than their peers at other airlines in aggregate. you can find a few exceptions here and there - and 700 tries to focus on any little crevice he can in order to find that advantage - but DL employees themselves have repeatedly decided that unions have no more ability to increase the total compensation package than what DL does thru a direct employee-mgmt. relationship.

The unionization that is taking place in the industry is among younger carriers who have tried to take advantage of the non-union status of labor groups in order to pay them less - and are paying for it now.

If they decide otherwise, I have no problems whatsoever. But they haven't changed that mindset in decades.

and there still is no verifiable evidence that labor is any closer to a win.

 

[WeAAsles]

"Strong unions set a pay standard that nonunion employers follow. For example, a high school graduate whose workplace is not unionized but whose industry is 25% unionized is paid 5% more than similar workers in less unionized industries."

http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/

So basically and in all honesty DL employees enjoy the perks they have today due to the fact that the industry is so heavily Unionized that the coattails are rode to their benefit.

What kind of rates would DL employees receive if this wasn't a fact? $12 per hour or roughly $24,000 per year is what the average person in the US who lifts a bag in any industry earns.

 

[WeAAsles]

National Average
$26,000

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Baggage_Handler_%28Aviation%2fAirline%29/Hourly_Rate

Now go down and look at the three quoted airlines. The median according to this site are as follows:

AA $42,936
US $29,943
DL $23,215

Can someone explain to me why these figures are quoted in this site?
 

 

[WeAAsles]

Here is the average according to Glassdoor.

$11.69/hr for DL as opposed to $41,750 per year for AA. That average for an AA ramper comes out to $20.07 per hour average on this site.

$11.69 for a person who has full time hours equals = $24,315 per year.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/baggage-handler-salary-SRCH_KO0,15.htm

The reality I think I see is that a FSC at DL is being bamboozled. Or in other words having the wool pulled over his eyes.

JMO or data?
 

 

[WeAAsles]

Again what you don't hear readers is how many people actually get to that magical top out rate at DL? Those numbers according to 2 pay rates sites is few and far in between.

But hey what do I know huh?

 

[robbedagain]

Weaasles  that's the same web I had posted but of course the master DL cheerleader says its not true  but as he would say  DATA DOESNT LIE

 

[WeAAsles]

Weaasles  that's the same web I had posted but of course the master DL cheerleader says its not true  but as he would say  DATA DOESNT LIE

I'm sure that it's not an exact science and the numbers change daily as either people hit the next pay scale date or someone get's fired or hires in. But I'm sure that's it's fairly correct and the disparity between the workers in each company is pretty substantial. Particularly against what I currently earn at AA.

And those scales were just BASE rates which did not include benefits.  

 

[WeAAsles]

Argh. Double posted.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Here is the average according to Glassdoor.

$11.69/hr for DL as opposed to $41,750 per year for AA. That average for an AA ramper comes out to $20.07 per hour average on this site.

$11.69 for a person who has full time hours equals = $24,315 per year.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/baggage-handler-salary-SRCH_KO0,15.htm

The reality I think I see is that a FSC at DL is being bamboozled. Or in other words having the wool pulled over his eyes.

JMO or data?

do you not see the disclaimers on the side of the graph that say "32 salaries for Delta Air Lines, 11 for AA, and 7 for US?"

I'm sorry but if you want to use a user survey of a handful of voluntary participants to discuss wage salaries while tossing out government data which includes the entire workforce at a given company, then we really don't have any basis for a intelligent discussion and you are no different than ta half dozen other low information and low intelligence people who have participated in this discussion for years.

If you truly understand those disclaimers and posted what you did anyway, then you highlight precisely why the labor movement doesn't have enough credibility to convince DL employees of your/their point. To say that DL employees are bamboozled when you handle data as poorly as you have is beyond understanding.

DL people are simply not stupid enough to use a chart that includes a relative handful of voluntary participants to provide a comparison of how well DL employees stack up against their peers.

So, WeAAsles, do you really understand the data you just posted?

and then to have a non-DL employee come on here and say that data doesn't lie... of course it doesn't. It just comes nowhere close to being representative of the entire DL workforce in a workgroup.

If you want to pick out any 32 people in a crowd and come up with generalities that you want to apply to the group that is 30 times larger as a whole, then you should expect absolutely no one with even a modicum of intelligence to agree with you.

and then some of those same people are the ones who claim that I and management manipulate data to prove the point.

The hypocrisy couldn't be more obvious.

 

[WeAAsles]

do you not see the disclaimers on the side of the graph that say "32 salaries for Delta Air Lines, 11 for AA, and 7 for US?"

I'm sorry but if you want to use a user survey of a handful of voluntary participants to discuss wage salaries while tossing out government data which includes the entire workforce at a given company, then we really don't have any basis for a intelligent discussion and you are no different than ta half dozen other low information and low intelligence people who have participated in this discussion for years.

Did you chose to purposely ignore this comment?

"I'm sure that it's not an exact science and the numbers change daily as either people hit the next pay scale date or someone get's fired or hires in. But I'm sure that's it's fairly correct and the disparity between the workers in each company is pretty substantial. Particularly against what I currently earn at AA.

And those scales were just BASE rates which did not include benefits."


If you truly understand those disclaimers and posted what you did anyway, then you highlight precisely why the labor movement doesn't have enough credibility to convince DL employees of your/their point. To say that DL employees are bamboozled when you handle data as poorly as you have is beyond understanding.

If the numbers were only slightly off then I would not have posted them as the variable in either direction would have to be factored in. Those numbers were FAR from close. 

DL people are simply not stupid enough to use a chart that includes a relative handful of voluntary participants to provide a comparison of how well DL employees stack up against their peers.

So, WeAAsles, do you really understand the data you just posted?

I may not? I only have a High School education and more than likely your academic achievements far exceed mine. Although I think NYC High Schools do produce the cream of the crop personally. And I am a follower of Evolutionary Biologist Richard Dawkins and Astrophysicist Neil deGrass Tyson.

and then to have a non-DL employee come on here and say that data doesn't lie... of course it doesn't. It just comes nowhere close to being representative of the entire DL workforce in a workgroup.

If you want to pick out any 32 people in a crowd and come up with generalities that you want to apply to the group that is 30 times larger as a whole, then you should expect absolutely no one with even a modicum of intelligence to agree with you.

And you really DO NOT want these people to know that they are not as well off in relation to their peers as they either believe or have been led to believe.

That's my assessment of this.

and then some of those same people are the ones who claim that I and management manipulate data to prove the point.

You're not manipulating anything. What you have posted has been factual. It's just not ALL of the facts.

The hypocrisy couldn't be more obvious.

Agreed.

 

[WeAAsles]

This is certainly not my area of expertise but I would have to believe that someone who had engaged in this line of work could have a magic way with twisting numbers to suit the need?

Also someone in this field would be tasked with finding any and all ways possible to increase yield. One of the best ways is through employee compensation which is something that is within the companies control unlike oil spikes or global catastrophes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_management

The reader is the one who needs to decide who really has their best interests in mind and who is being sincere?

Again that emphasis is on you.

 

[WorldTraveler]

let's just get a few things out on the table.

are you involved in union leadership in any capacity?

In the space of just one day, someone who I thought would be a reasonable person to talk about the industry with - I really haven't paid any attention to you before - has turned out to be a dyed in the wool labor promoter who shows absolute disregard for facts in the face of pushing union BS which can't be supported by the facts.

I appreciate your willing to parse your words and step back just a bit but you came out swinging by saying that DL employees have been bamboozled. those aren't words that provide any room for doubt.

If you really think the data you presented may not be accurate, then you don't make those kind of statements.

I don't expect anyone to have a graduate degree to understand that a random web based survey of a couple dozen employees is not going to ever be a representative sample of what DL employees in a particular workgroup make.

There are very well defined procedures that can be used for sampling data to ensure that one has a representative group of the whole but 30 people out of a group of 10,000 who voluntarily participate in a web survey will never be accurate.

I am also not going to just roll over and accept your statement that I am manipulating data when I am using data that includes the full workforce, is standardized across the US industry, and is provided using the same definitions for each airline.

If you wish to say that I am manipulating data that is publicly available and is used by airline analysts and then use a web survey leaves little room for any reasonable discussion between us.

So, do you belong to a union, do you have any leadership position in any union, do you understand the data you posted and what it really means as well as the data that you said I have manipulated, and do you really want to continue with your assessment that I, and not you have misrepresented data?

 

[robbedagain]

weassles  that is pretty much what I had figured on     it does give a fairly accurate of salaries nonetheless