IAM Stepping Up campaign

[yoyodyne]

Going to be some great selling material that in the new TA for US guys that "Ready Reserve" is gone. That and the rumor floating around is no more double medical either.

If I was a ready reserve SLAVE I'd sign up in a heartbeat.

 
 
It is going to be such a relief when the TWU makes you realize just how far you can bend and grab your ankles, with the IAM close behind.  Parker is going to change the meaning of pain, just watch...

 

[WeAAsles]

that data is available here.

http://www.airlinefinancials.com/uploads/2013_Network_Annual_Summary2.pdf

in fact, DL spends a higher percentage of revenue on salaries and benefits than AA or US for 2013, the most recent data available.

note that DL has the highest average wage/salary per employee as well as the highest benefit cost per employee.

As a percent of revenue, UA spends more than DL because UA doesn't deliver the kind of revenue that DL generates.

but note also that DL generates more revenue per employee and more ASMs per employee than any of the other network carriers.

DL also has the lowest percentage of fuel cost AS WELL AS debt service compared to revenue

The simple reality is that DL does not scrimp on salaries but in fact pays its employees well and cuts costs elsewhere in order to keep its employees well paid.

IN turn, DL employees deliver above average revenue generation and above average productivity.

DL emploeyes are well compensated relative to their peers but they use their advantage to help the company succeed at its goals.

It is not a strategy that is much different from what WN does.

yet so many people here think it is a good strategy for WN to use because they are unionized but it isn't good because DL is largely non-union.

 

Ok this is a very good tabulation that you provided and was exactly what I was looking for . Except  I don't see any tabulations for those who work in Maintenance or Ground service? Pilots are Unionized so that one is factored out and FA's while not unionized are required to be on the aircraft so it's hard to outsource them and the expectation is that they would be compensated well to keep a union out in an extremely heavily unionized industry.

Do you have a tabulation that is specific to ground support personnel? That's an area where I can almost bet I would see a very different picture?

And I've actually referenced Airline Financials myself a few times but it's almost strange how that operating cost is excluded?

 

[WeAAsles]

 
 
It is going to be such a relief when the TWU makes you realize just how far you can bend and grab your ankles, with the IAM close behind.  Parker is going to change the meaning of pain, just watch...

Thank you for chiming in. Your participation in this conversation was duly noted and considered for exactly what it should be.

Again thank you very much.

 

[yoyodyne]

Thank you for chiming in. Your participation in this conversation was duly noted and considered for exactly what it should be.

Again thank you very much.

 
 
Just doing my part, like the one you and 700 are playing over at the US Fleet thread

 

[WeAAsles]

 
 
Just doing my part, like the one you and 700 are playing over at the US Fleet thread

Absolutely

“I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind except that you happen to be insane.”
― George Orwell, 1984

 

[WorldTraveler]

Ok this is a very good tabulation that you provided and was exactly what I was looking for . Except  I don't see any tabulations for those who work in Maintenance or Ground service? Pilots are Unionized so that one is factored out and FA's while not unionized are required to be on the aircraft so it's hard to outsource them and the expectation is that they would be compensated well to keep a union out in an extremely heavily unionized industry.

Do you have a tabulation that is specific to ground support personnel? That's an area where I can almost bet I would see a very different picture?

And I've actually referenced Airline Financials myself a few times but it's almost strange how that operating cost is excluded?

good morning, WeAAsles,
yes, the airlines do report a single category of what would be considered airport ground personnel which does not include maintenance but would include above and below wing airport personnel and cargo.

maintenance is a separate category.

for 2013, the average salary for that group is $47k for DL, $44K for AA, $32K for UA, and $39K for US. For comparison, it is $51K for WN.

actually, the data for AA is for 2012. they have not reported full employee data for 2013 yet.

all of the raw data comes from airline filings with the DOT but there is some flexibility with how airlines report and categorize to the DOT and the methodology of each of the organizations that analyze the data.

 

[WeAAsles]

good morning, WeAAsles,
yes, the airlines do report a single category of what would be considered airport ground personnel which does not include maintenance but would include above and below wing airport personnel and cargo.

maintenance is a separate category.

for 2013, the average salary for that group is $47k for DL, $44K for AA, $32K for UA, and $39K for US. For comparison, it is $51K for WN.

actually, the data for AA is for 2012. they have not reported full employee data for 2013 yet.

all of the raw data comes from airline filings with the DOT but there is some flexibility with how airlines report and categorize to the DOT and the methodology of each of the organizations that analyze the data.

Good morning WT.
 
I'm assuming that your data is for base rate? On those averages how many people are working for each of those companies that the rate can be applied to? That's the big question. AA at last glance (Not including Us) has about 8500 fsc's. So if DL post merger has less or even substantially less then those numbers it doesn't create a factual picture for the readers to gauge. The numbers only shine if they were at the very least equal to the size of the carrier by the percentage of people who work for it. Currently those at the Top Out rate for DAL make $1.33 more per hour than me and if they ratify US. In Sept that gap is narrowed to .86. UAL employees are currently .74 above DAL and that does not include "longevity" that can amount to up to an extra .75 for someone with 30 years (Max Longevity) DL employees do not have longevity.

UAL rampers (IAM) are currently ahead on all metrics of work and compensation. Now we can speculate that at the conclusion of JCB talks at the merged AA those rates and work will probably surpass DL??? (AA Maintenance has far more work than any other airline) US IAM represented employees have the best and lowest cost medical in the industry which also has to be factored into the equations. Many things always need to be factored in.

The reason DL pays a decent rate is because they are surrounded on all sides by the Union hordes. But looking at the numbers they throw out to their employees I truly again believe doesn't paint an accurate picture. If DL were to organize I also believe that since the IAM would represent rampers at all 3 majors and in partnership with the TWU at AA and SWA employee rates would rise substantially. I could easily foresee a $30 per hour rate by decades end.
 
Don't forget WT that I am very pro Union and completely understand the value I get for being a part of that. I didn't even express that value in this writing yet.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DOT data is based on all in costs. These are AVERAGES which reflect as close as possible what any person on the payroll in that category can make.

None of us knows how many people are at each pay step or how much they get in additional compensation. Keep in mind these numbers also include profit sharing which for the last year amounted to about one month's salary for DL employees. That is huge but it is also is expected to continue to be that large. DL is expected to have set aside thru this quarter as much in profit sharing as it paid for all of the 2013.

UAL is not protecting jobs for its rampers; it is no surprise that WN and UA mechanics both make more than DL's on average but both outsource far more than DL does. It is seen thruout the industry that average salary are high when outsourcing is also high. The spreadsheet I showed you does have the number of people in each workgroup but those workgroups for DOT purposes lump above and below wing personnel as well as cargo into the same group.

DL pays its people well because DL employees produce superior productivity for DL and generate superior revenue.

DL also recognizes that if they don't pay at or above average, employees will unionize. DL's formula has long been to pay at/above industry averages such that employees have little incentive to seek a union since there are a number of employees in the industry who are represented by unions and who make wages below DL employees.

If your logic about all 3 airlines having IAM comparable salaries were true, then the same should be true for pilots and yet it is not. DL pilots currently make higher average salaries than AA, US, or UA - in part because they were able to benefit from DL's desire to settle the pilot contract before the NW merger and because they have had 7 more years of a growing company to help with their salary growth.

Yet, DL pilots are looking for pay raises in their contract which is renewable next year. There is absolutely pattern bargaining and increased pay rates that take place regardless of whether groups are unionized or not.

but it is all tied to the ability to generate revenue. In the past, esp. in the late 90s, labor got huge pay raises at US legacies and then the revenue floor fell out with 9/11 and the growth of LCCs. Labor can only benefit as long as companies generate strong revenues.

While the consolidated industry provides more opportunity that ever for the airlines to manage capacity, there is absolutely no assurance that labor is going to continue to see huge increases - solely because the industry as a whole still is not anywhere near the financial metrics it should be compared to other industries.

Further, there is no evidence that one union at multiple airlines can produce benefits across the airline because the US does not allow industry-wide bargaining.

I'm glad you are pro-union and support your desire to discuss your ideas. I could talk for days with someone who is logical and willing to consider contrasting points of view, regardless of whether they are in agreement with what I believe or not.

 

[WeAAsles]

DOT data is based on all in costs. These are AVERAGES which reflect as close as possible what any person on the payroll in that category can make.

None of us knows how many people are at each pay step or how much they get in additional compensation. Keep in mind these numbers also include profit sharing which for the last year amounted to about one month's salary for DL employees. That is huge but it is also is expected to continue to be that large. DL is expected to have set aside thru this quarter as much in profit sharing as it paid for all of the 2013.

Profit sharing is a great incentive and motivator. Our negotiators gave up the PS for the 4.3% raise. After the math was done it was determined that the company would have to reach a Profit of 4Bil to equal the first year raise. And that doesn't factor in OT, extra work and 401 contributions as well as compounding per year off the 4.3% with further raises.

Although I would like to see us regain PS in the future or something my co workers don't understand the value of, ESOP.

UAL is not protecting jobs for its rampers; it is no surprise that WN and UA mechanics both make more than DL's on average but both outsource far more than DL does. It is seen thruout the industry that average salary are high when outsourcing is also high. The spreadsheet I showed you does have the number of people in each workgroup but those workgroups for DOT purposes lump above and below wing personnel as well as cargo into the same group.

UAL is a different beast as the pmCO guys did not have any protection language in their contract. Unfortunately the IAM had there back against the wall on that one. Very different for AA/US employees as we both have station staffing methodologies and protections in our contracts currently.

DL pays its people well because DL employees produce superior productivity for DL and generate superior revenue.

But you do have to realize that DL can control how their workers behave not having to answer to a Union and a CBA that gives them certain protections against being discriminated against. AA is not my first big company to work for and I have seen what not having that sort of protection can do. Especially if a manager just doesn't like you.

DL also recognizes that if they don't pay at or above average, employees will unionize. DL's formula has long been to pay at/above industry averages such that employees have little incentive to seek a union since there are a number of employees in the industry who are represented by unions and who make wages below DL employees.

Absolutely. But again you stated "WAGES" A Contract to me has far more value than just wages can ever reflect. Wages are just the top of the pie, I need to see and eat the filling.

If your logic about all 3 airlines having IAM comparable salaries were true, then the same should be true for pilots and yet it is not. DL pilots currently make higher average salaries than AA, US, or UA - in part because they were able to benefit from DL's desire to settle the pilot contract before the NW merger and because they have had 7 more years of a growing company to help with their salary growth.

Absolutely. I hope you don't mind but I had to highlight that part you wrote.

Yet, DL pilots are looking for pay raises in their contract which is renewable next year. There is absolutely pattern bargaining and increased pay rates that take place regardless of whether groups are unionized or not.

but it is all tied to the ability to generate revenue. In the past, esp. in the late 90s, labor got huge pay raises at US legacies and then the revenue floor fell out with 9/11 and the growth of LCCs. Labor can only benefit as long as companies generate strong revenues.

100% correct. Late 90's Tech bubble. A lot of people saw their 401's crumble but it was built on a sham in the first place. The burst was coming anyway, 9/11 just fired a missile into it.

While the consolidated industry provides more opportunity that ever for the airlines to manage capacity, there is absolutely no assurance that labor is going to continue to see huge increases - solely because the industry as a whole still is not anywhere near the financial metrics it should be compared to other industries.

Yes there is still a hole that has to be dug out from underneath. We should balance our gains with that thought in mind. But we also need to realize that with consolidation costs can be passed on to the consumer far more easily than anytime since before deregulation. IATA has predicted incredible growth in traffic in the next 20 years and as much as the airlines will want to capitalize on that, labor will need to be prepared to do the same. 

Except for improved customer service I don't see very happy times for travelers wallets. Air travel may even return to being mostly for the well heeled in life rather than as I said before Joe and his Biggy size soda cup.

Further, there is no evidence that one union at multiple airlines can produce benefits across the airline because the US does not allow industry-wide bargaining.

There would not be industry-wide bargaining but there very well could be collusion through conversation. I think the joint IAM/TWU association shows that those ideas are already happening. Time will be the decider on that of course though.

I'm glad you are pro-union and support your desire to discuss your ideas. I could talk for days with someone who is logical and willing to consider contrasting points of view, regardless of whether they are in agreement with what I believe or not.

Not a problem but from reading things you do seem to be a little slanted towards DL? I think you're going to see some incredible movement from AA in the coming years. They certainly are using DL as the template though IMO.

Don't even want to discuss UAL. SMH. If they don't show some dramatic improvements soon they could put the entire new formula out of whack?
 

 

[700UW]

He spins his numbers, but doesnt use the facts or reality.
 
DL outsources all Overhauls, US and AA do more overhauls in-house than DL, US farms out most component work.
 
He loves to use DOT #s but he doesnt know the reality of the business.
 
You can have one mechanic overhauling a part, it takes dozens to overhaul a plane.
 
US does 50% of billable heavy maintenance hours in-house, and doesnt farmout any line maintenance.

 

[WeAAsles]

He spins his numbers, but doesnt use the facts or reality.
 
DL outsources all Overhauls, US and AA do more overhauls in-house than DL, US farms out most component work.
 
He loves to use DOT #s but he doesnt know the reality of the business.
 
You can have one mechanic overhauling a part, it takes dozens to overhaul a plane.
 
US does 50% of billable heavy maintenance hours in-house, and doesnt farmout any line maintenance.

I've seen those numbers somewhere before. I believe it was something in the range of AA has 10 mechanics for every plane where AMFA has only 5 at SW. DL is probably roughly the same as AMFA at SWA or maybe even less?

This is the type of thing that I would be looking for in regards to FSC if someone was going to hand me a Union card to vote on? What are more job prospects and security for being able to maximize my compensation and geographical location?

 

[700UW]

He loves to use data and spin it to his mantra, but the reality is DL outsources all its heavy checks, and even most of the cabin mods, they are ferrying planes all over Asia for the work.
 
Flying an empty plane from SIN to ATL, and NRT to points in Asia.
 
They can farmout anything they want, and they even use contract mechanics in there TOC in ATL.
 
So are those mechanics counted? 
 
If you use a contractor that is still outsourcing.

 

[WeAAsles]

He loves to use data and spin it to his mantra, but the reality is DL outsources all its heavy checks, and even most of the cabin mods, they are ferrying planes all over Asia for the work.
 
Flying an empty plane from SIN to ATL, and NRT to points in Asia.
 
They can farmout anything they want, and they even use contract mechanics in there TOC in ATL.
 
So are those mechanics counted? 
 
If you use a contractor that is still outsourcing.

I very much doubt from the link that WT provided in regards to labor costs outsourced work is factored in?

Again the formula doesn't factor in percentages. Let's say a particular workgroup costs 800 Mil per year for a thousand heads. A competitor pays the same 800 Mil but has 1400 heads. Those 1000 heads are earning more per individual but they have fewer workers or jobs then their competitor.

WT himself has pointed out how many more employees AA/US has working for them in comparison to DAL. That tells the more honest picture.

And on a personal note more work contributes to a better personal schedule on a seniority basis. Where myself and my DL counterpart both have 19 years with our respective companies. My schedule gives me Sat Sun off to be with my family where my counterpart more than likely has Tue Wed off.

There is value under that metric as well.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I spin nothing, 700.

I use industry standard data which consistently shows that US outsources the highest percent of dollars spent on total maintenance of all four of the legacy airlines - since US still operates under its own certificate.

AA for the 2013 year is at 30% total maintenance spent on outsourcing. US is almost twice that amount.

DL is at 40%.

You can't accept that all of these supposed protections you think the IAM has obtained for its mechanics actually mean nothing in terms of the total amount spent on maintenance which consists of far more than air frame overhauls.

Feel free to continue to believe that the IAM has accomplished much in terms of protecting jobs but the data easily says otherwise.





weAAsles,
again, you aren't ever going to find the distribution of employees by pay scale at any company and the same is true for seniority. you simply have to accept that data is not available and evaluate based on data which is available and based on your personal situation.

The averages might not favor a person or even a subgroup relative to the total but the same mathematical formula is used for both calculations so it isn't valid to argue that you won't accept readily available data and derived calculations but you will accept a personal single person sample size because it fits your narrative.

It is very possible that you can find one friend at another airline and relative to them you have a preferable situation.

Mathematically, the majority of people have to be represented better by the average unless there are a huge number of people who are making very high wages at the top - and there is no evidence of that happening.

Ultimately, the decision comes down to one's personal interpretation of one's pay and benefits package relative to the promises a union and the industry makes.

Ironically for you, mechanics at Delta have shown the least interest in unionizing of any of the current non-union groups.

DL mechanics are far from being convinced that a union can offer anything of value to them.

Even among groups where there has been union activity in the past, including in In-Flight, the majority of employees have voted consistently that they do not want a union.

I can tell you the facts as to how DL has delivered a pay and benefits package that provides little to no room for a DL employee to believe there is much real benefit that a union can bring compared to what the employees have now.

Ultimately DL employees themselves make the decision and their track record of not supporting unionization efforts speaks far more than any debate you or I or anyone else can have.

If DL people were convinced unions had value, they would vote them in... but instead they have done just the opposite.

 

[WeAAsles]

I spin nothing, 700.

I use industry standard data which consistently shows that US outsources the highest percent of dollars spent on total maintenance of all four of the legacy airlines - since US still operates under its own certificate.

AA for the 2013 year is at 30% total maintenance spent on outsourcing. US is almost twice that amount.

DL is at 40%.

You can't accept that all of these supposed protections you think the IAM has obtained for its mechanics actually mean nothing in terms of the total amount spent on maintenance which consists of far more than air frame overhauls.

Feel free to continue to believe that the IAM has accomplished much in terms of protecting jobs but the data easily says otherwise.





weAAsles,
again, you aren't ever going to find the distribution of employees by pay scale at any company and the same is true for seniority. you simply have to accept that data is not available and evaluate based on data which is available and based on your personal situation.

I think the data could be calculated but it wouldn't serve the interest of a company to do so. There are DOL reports that measure the levels of outsourcing within particular industries but that outsourcing data is tied to work shipped offshore. Not subcontracted work within the US.

The averages might not favor a person or even a subgroup relative to the total but the same mathematical formula is used for both calculations so it isn't valid to argue that you won't accept readily available data and derived calculations but you will accept a personal single person sample size because it fits your narrative.

Nothing fits my narrative. Even though I am pro Union I try to take things into account on a purely scientific rational for calculations. As you've even stated I try not to let my emotions get the better of me and approach a topic with careful analysis.

It is very possible that you can find one friend at another airline and relative to them you have a preferable situation.

Mathematically, the majority of people have to be represented better by the average unless there are a huge number of people who are making very high wages at the top - and there is no evidence of that happening.

And you are not providing me any evidence of that not happening. That is why I reach out to current employees of the company that can provide me data hopefully based on a pure metric ----- Or opinion?

Ultimately, the decision comes down to one's personal interpretation of one's pay and benefits package relative to the promises a union and the industry makes.

Ironically for you, mechanics at Delta have shown the least interest in unionizing of any of the current non-union groups.

DL mechanics are far from being convinced that a union can offer anything of value to them.

Even among groups where there has been union activity in the past, including in In-Flight, the majority of employees have voted consistently that they do not want a union.

Mainly those decisions come down to personal asides or what is sold to them rather than doing the research to ascertain the entire picture for themselves. Basically people are sheep and will be led by whoever yells the loudest.

DL management has a pretty large bullhorn.

I can tell you the facts as to how DL has delivered a pay and benefits package that provides little to no room for a DL employee to believe there is much real benefit that a union can bring compared to what the employees have now.

Ultimately DL employees themselves make the decision and their track record of not supporting unionization efforts speaks far more than any debate you or I or anyone else can have.

If DL people were convinced unions had value, they would vote them in... but instead they have done just the opposite.

Not always and not necessarily. Again it's up to the individual to get all the facts he possibly can before making a decision. The company has far better access than a labor organizer at being able to convey what they purport as facts rather than allowing the same access to the Union seeking to represent them.

Basically DL has a captive audience.