IAM Stepping Up campaign
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WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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in a very loosely related merger topic, one source is saying that DL has reserved registration numbers for the new 333s that continue the same registration sequence that NW used, including retaining the "NW" in the registration. ie N822NW - N831NW.
Not sure if DL has ever done that before but there has got to be at least as much symbolism in that move as there is regarding the Sky rag cover photo.
Given that the new 333s will be in service for decades if DL continues to operate the way it does with pushing airframes to their life limits, there will continue to be indications of the NW heritage for far longer than existed with DL's other predecessor airlines.
and the question was how the promise was made or perceived since it is frequently pointed out that DL non-contract employees don't have a contract, little is in writing, and everything is subject to change.
WorldTraveler
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I am completely with you regarding keeping promises and not changing rules unless there is ample notice and agreement, if possible. But I am certain that you would acknowledge that there have been changes made to your working agreement which you didn't exactly support and that your union couldn't stop, even if they wanted to.
again, the question is what was actually said and what was perceived to have been said.
I don't know and am not pretending to say that what was perceived was not what was promised.
But it seems a little paradoxical to say that DL non-contract employees don't have something in writing and then say they were promised something that isn't being delivered.
I'm just curious how something could have been promised if it wasn't in writing... and if it is in writing there should be some evidence of it. Surely you wouldn't want your contract to be valid by spoken word.
And specific to the overall topic of movement between above and below wing, I agreed with Kev that I have never known DL ACS employees to be able to move repeatedly back and from below and above wing although many employees have worked in both areas.
Kev also indicated that there might not be near an interest among employees to move back and forth, if I understand him correctly, which might indicate that the problem is not that the company isn't willing to accommodate employee requests but that those requests to move between ACS areas are just not there.
And I also am not sure if cargo is considered an area of ACS among which ACS employees can move. I believe it is a separate department but I'm not sure if there is the freedom to move.
Remember also that few other airlines allow ANY movement between departments without losing seniority at least because different unions are involved and protect their own workers.
IN general, DL employees have long been able to move between areas much more freely than other airlines' employees.
I'm sure you are aware that many DL employees do move between areas including frequently between In-Flight, ACS, and Res. There are fewer transfers involving maintenance and Flight Ops but there are pilots, as I'm sure you are aware, that started their careers in other departments at DL.
Again, I am trying to understand from Kev regarding the current situation... but I also can't help but note the paradox in saying that non-contract employees don't have a lot of things in writing and then saying that promises that weren't in writing aren't being kept.
and if this is really an issue for enough DL employees, they will make it part of a representation campaign. But given that there appears to be little interest in transfers to begin with, I'm not sure it really matters to the vast majority of employees. and even if it did matter, in a negotiation process, it would likely take back seat to other issues -exactly as it has at other airlines.
again, the question is what was actually said and what was perceived to have been said.
I don't know and am not pretending to say that what was perceived was not what was promised.
But it seems a little paradoxical to say that DL non-contract employees don't have something in writing and then say they were promised something that isn't being delivered.
I'm just curious how something could have been promised if it wasn't in writing... and if it is in writing there should be some evidence of it. Surely you wouldn't want your contract to be valid by spoken word.
And specific to the overall topic of movement between above and below wing, I agreed with Kev that I have never known DL ACS employees to be able to move repeatedly back and from below and above wing although many employees have worked in both areas.
Kev also indicated that there might not be near an interest among employees to move back and forth, if I understand him correctly, which might indicate that the problem is not that the company isn't willing to accommodate employee requests but that those requests to move between ACS areas are just not there.
And I also am not sure if cargo is considered an area of ACS among which ACS employees can move. I believe it is a separate department but I'm not sure if there is the freedom to move.
Remember also that few other airlines allow ANY movement between departments without losing seniority at least because different unions are involved and protect their own workers.
IN general, DL employees have long been able to move between areas much more freely than other airlines' employees.
I'm sure you are aware that many DL employees do move between areas including frequently between In-Flight, ACS, and Res. There are fewer transfers involving maintenance and Flight Ops but there are pilots, as I'm sure you are aware, that started their careers in other departments at DL.
Again, I am trying to understand from Kev regarding the current situation... but I also can't help but note the paradox in saying that non-contract employees don't have a lot of things in writing and then saying that promises that weren't in writing aren't being kept.
and if this is really an issue for enough DL employees, they will make it part of a representation campaign. But given that there appears to be little interest in transfers to begin with, I'm not sure it really matters to the vast majority of employees. and even if it did matter, in a negotiation process, it would likely take back seat to other issues -exactly as it has at other airlines.
Kev3188
Veteran
+1
All the more so when "always keep your deals" is one of the company's core philosophies.
At a minimum, they should nver have over promised and under delivered- especially when it was part of a push to get NW people to come around to their way of thinking.
Lemme know when one leaves TLS painted red & grey (or silver). An N-number is nice, but in the grand scheme of things? Meh.
If senior mgmt. tells you you'll be able to move freely between inside/outside with each bid, how else would you perceive it?
Not really. It's just another in a long line of reasons why people prefer things in a binding agreement.
The number (or interest) is irrelevant. The difference between what was "sold" to the masses, and what actually came to be doesn't change.
Completely separate.
Kev3188
Veteran
I'm all for a decent package, but I'll believe it when I see it.
Commercial aviation: Fueled by Jet A & rumors...
Commercial aviation: Fueled by Jet A & rumors...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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Kev,
you are a great man of principle and have a great mind and I have a lot of respect for you on those regards.
Can we make this practical?
Have you ever applied for a transfer to above wing ACS and been denied - either in your own station or another?
as for packages, DL has offered them on at least an every two year basis and often annually for close to two decades and the reason is simply that there are senior people who can be coaxed to leave with some sort of incentive allowing DL to replace senior workers with new hires. Given that DL has said they intend to keep non-fuel cost growth at 2% per year or less, they can't give 5% pay raises per year to existing employees and be able to achieve that goal.
DL offered the packages before to cut the workforce; today, DL is growing but they need to keep costs under control. Let's also remember that health care costs are getting more expensive by the day for US companies.
The only real question is the type of incentive DL is offering this time.
Kev3188
Veteran
Sure, right after you explain how my own experience is relevant.WorldTraveler said:
If you're going on a fishing expedition to try and frame me as having sour grapes, save the keystrokes- there's nothing there.
I've never applied for (or as of yet) wanted to move out front, with either NW or DL.
Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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thank you for your response.
I'm not framing you, Kev, and I am certain that you do what you do very well. based on what others say here, that sentiment is unanimous. No one would want you to quit doing what you do well as long as where you are is the place you want to be.
all the best to you, always!
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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sorry but that is just a little too much over the top.
southwind
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- Jan 22, 2008
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700UW said:
I lump peeps, like Springsteen with the likes of Penn............they got theirs, now they want the middle class to make sure everyone else gets theirs, by force of government!
Guess what? If your take millions from Springsteen and Penn, they're still millionaires!
Stick to music Bruce, and acting, Sean! Your BS don't fly here!
OH! And why did IAM members vote out the IAM at Boeing?
Maybe they were playing too much golf, on the course, members bought for them!
Kev3188
Veteran
Kinda like you "working OT out the a$$" while your coworker's tool boxes were a rollin'?southwind said:
Maybe Springsteen embraces the idea of pulling people up to where he's now at, instead of kicking away the ladder.
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