IAM Stepping Up campaign
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southwind
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- Jan 22, 2008
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^^^ Wealth Envy ^^^ Whats stopping you from becoming a CEO?robbedagain said:
Your worth, what a company is willing to pay you...........don't think your current company appreciates what you think your worth, try another company!blue collar said:
And while on the subject, What's a living wage, in "DOLLAR" amount?
WorldTraveler
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esp. since most of the people who are not DL employees and most loudly advocate for DL ramp and FA unionization have loyalties to or receive a paycheck from companies that pay their employees significantly less than DL employees - and have shared far less of their wealth than DL has.
You always have to view with suspicion someone who thinks they can sell you something better than what they have. If it is so good, why aren't they reaping the benefits of it?
Specifically, plz post the pay raises and profit sharing that US FAs and rampers have received in the past 5 years.
You always have to view with suspicion someone who thinks they can sell you something better than what they have. If it is so good, why aren't they reaping the benefits of it?
Specifically, plz post the pay raises and profit sharing that US FAs and rampers have received in the past 5 years.
robbedagain said:
Board Members aren't by most standards especially well compensated, none of the non-executive directors at DL received between $220,389-$412,854 in total compensation, as is consistent with most other public companies.
All the details are here: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/27904/000119312514172167/d717419d10ka.htm
Are you referring to senior management-CEO, CFO, COO, VPs, etc? They receive substantially greater compensation-mostly in the form of stock awards-to align pay with performance as part of good corporate governance. Their compensation is set by a compensation committee, detailed in the report linked above.
Josh
WorldTraveler
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there will always be people who think that anyone who makes more than $100,000 is gouging someone else (although many pilots make far more than that based on the market for their services) but what a lot of people fail to appreciate is that DL's executives have created more than $10 billion in wealth for their shareholders in the past year - or 50% more than the value of the company a year ago. Just for perspective, the wealth that DL created for its stockholders in the past year was considerably more than all of the salaries and benefits DL paid its employees in the entire year.
corporations today are huge. The value of many companies is as large as the production of small countries or even states of developed countries.
I'm not necessarily justifying the salaries anyone makes but from the perspective of a production employee, the size of a corporation is well beyond what can be imagined.
Having envy over an organization that generates as much wealth as a successful company like DL doesis lacking in perspective.
The individual contributions of any employee or even all of them put together make little to no difference if they aren't orchestrated in a powerful way. DL's payroll one year after the merger and now is not a whole lot different but compared to the value of the company and the profits that are being produced, the change is enormous.
And for those who seem to want to forget, the primary purpose of a company in a free market economy is to generate profits for its owners.
when a company does as well as DL is doing and its employees are benefitting as well and in greater measure than their peers, it is hard to argue that anyone is being hurt other than the competitors who DL is winning against.
corporations today are huge. The value of many companies is as large as the production of small countries or even states of developed countries.
I'm not necessarily justifying the salaries anyone makes but from the perspective of a production employee, the size of a corporation is well beyond what can be imagined.
Having envy over an organization that generates as much wealth as a successful company like DL doesis lacking in perspective.
The individual contributions of any employee or even all of them put together make little to no difference if they aren't orchestrated in a powerful way. DL's payroll one year after the merger and now is not a whole lot different but compared to the value of the company and the profits that are being produced, the change is enormous.
And for those who seem to want to forget, the primary purpose of a company in a free market economy is to generate profits for its owners.
when a company does as well as DL is doing and its employees are benefitting as well and in greater measure than their peers, it is hard to argue that anyone is being hurt other than the competitors who DL is winning against.
Kev3188
Veteran
...and not one mention of the employees actually genertaed that revenue.WorldTraveler said:
Shocking.
Your continued fealty to capital is duly noted.
Funny how when times are good, it's because of "executive vision." In bad times, that's conveniently ignored, and workers are told they're a drag on the system.
WorldTraveler
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no one is negating the effect that employees had. Quite the contrary.
But, honestly, did you not do the same job 2 years ago that you did this past year? Did you increase your output by 50%?
I'm not at all belittling the impact of DL employees - but you seem to not want to admit that the executive and the BOD raised the value of the company by more than 50% or $10B which is more than the entire payroll - by a fairly significant measure.
The players of an orchestra are no less good at what they do when they sit down to play as individuals. But when a great conductor brings out the best of everyone, no one could possibly do from their vantage point what a conductor does from the podium.
and no it isn't just in good times. Mullins was without a doubt the worst thing that happened to DL - followed closely by Ron Allen. No DL person would tell you differently.
Mullins was at the helm both in the high-flying years at the end of the 90s as well as 9/11 but he spent money and allowed his underlings to do so - including for themselves - like there was no tomorrow. Ron Allen expanded DL's route system dramatically but both Allen and Mullins did a very poor job of position DL for the bad times that are inevitable in the airline industry - and they both had a low regard for employees or at least made employees pay for the "sins" of leadership.
But, honestly, did you not do the same job 2 years ago that you did this past year? Did you increase your output by 50%?
I'm not at all belittling the impact of DL employees - but you seem to not want to admit that the executive and the BOD raised the value of the company by more than 50% or $10B which is more than the entire payroll - by a fairly significant measure.
The players of an orchestra are no less good at what they do when they sit down to play as individuals. But when a great conductor brings out the best of everyone, no one could possibly do from their vantage point what a conductor does from the podium.
and no it isn't just in good times. Mullins was without a doubt the worst thing that happened to DL - followed closely by Ron Allen. No DL person would tell you differently.
Mullins was at the helm both in the high-flying years at the end of the 90s as well as 9/11 but he spent money and allowed his underlings to do so - including for themselves - like there was no tomorrow. Ron Allen expanded DL's route system dramatically but both Allen and Mullins did a very poor job of position DL for the bad times that are inevitable in the airline industry - and they both had a low regard for employees or at least made employees pay for the "sins" of leadership.
metopower
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- Nov 28, 2006
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Every inter company memo ,communication ,correspondence ,email that I have received from the company has thanked me and my co workers for the success of the company. I hope you can show me when and where management has stated other wise. Also while you are at it where has Richard Anderson taken credit for the same. There are those that have bestowed that on him and others but where does HE or the management team done that. Just wondering?
WorldTraveler
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nowhere did I say that DL doesn't and hasn't acknowledged the contributions of its employees.
But the union doesn't focus on that.... they are trying to drive a wedge between employees -whether it be pilots vs. FAs or ramp workers vs. mgmt. - in the hopes of creating some means to justify that a union is necessary.
If you read my posts above about the difference between DL and other airlines, you will see that I have consistently said that it is DL's employee focused culture that has largely been responsible for the fact that the majority of DL employees have consistently said they don't need a union to get what is as good or better than what other airlines have.
it is precisely because DL recognizes that the employees are the reason for the company's success that DL has achieved the successes that it has.
But it also means that employees of different employee groups - including the fact that pilots are paid significantly more than other employees -that labor's attempts at putting wedges between employee groups doesn't work and employees realize it.
Perhaps it will help you to understand that there are some people who have participated in this thread that have argued that all DL employees should receive the same dollar amount of profit sharing.
How would you as a senior captain feel about getting the exact same profit sharing check as every other DL employee? I can tell you that few pilots would believe that is a fair and just compensation system.
YMMV
again, there is nothing in what I have said that DL doesn't recognize the contributions that employees have made - but it doesn't mean that all employee groups will be paid the same or will even receive the same rewards for the company's success.
the mere fact that there are people who think that voting down my posts which are absolutely based in reality says how out of touch some of them are with the way the world works.
I suppose if it makes them feel better, go for it, but it certainly won't change the way reality tomorrow morning when they show up for work.
But the union doesn't focus on that.... they are trying to drive a wedge between employees -whether it be pilots vs. FAs or ramp workers vs. mgmt. - in the hopes of creating some means to justify that a union is necessary.
If you read my posts above about the difference between DL and other airlines, you will see that I have consistently said that it is DL's employee focused culture that has largely been responsible for the fact that the majority of DL employees have consistently said they don't need a union to get what is as good or better than what other airlines have.
it is precisely because DL recognizes that the employees are the reason for the company's success that DL has achieved the successes that it has.
But it also means that employees of different employee groups - including the fact that pilots are paid significantly more than other employees -that labor's attempts at putting wedges between employee groups doesn't work and employees realize it.
Perhaps it will help you to understand that there are some people who have participated in this thread that have argued that all DL employees should receive the same dollar amount of profit sharing.
How would you as a senior captain feel about getting the exact same profit sharing check as every other DL employee? I can tell you that few pilots would believe that is a fair and just compensation system.
YMMV
again, there is nothing in what I have said that DL doesn't recognize the contributions that employees have made - but it doesn't mean that all employee groups will be paid the same or will even receive the same rewards for the company's success.
the mere fact that there are people who think that voting down my posts which are absolutely based in reality says how out of touch some of them are with the way the world works.
I suppose if it makes them feel better, go for it, but it certainly won't change the way reality tomorrow morning when they show up for work.
Kev3188
Veteran
Organized labor doesn't need to drive wedges- the company already does that just fine on it's own.
Being represented is about labor & capital having equal standing.
Lemme know when either DALPA or PAFCA move to decertify.
Being represented is about labor & capital having equal standing.
Lemme know when either DALPA or PAFCA move to decertify.
Why are the DL F/As being courted by the IAM, not AFA? My UA (sCO) friends worked under the IAM at EWR for nine years and say AFA is much better but are still dues objectors. Is this because AFA cheated pm-NW out of profit sharing by not releasing DL from interfered charges and allowing the group to seek other representation?
Josh
Josh
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Kev, meto, and southwind,
nowhere, but nowhere, have I ever written that DL appreciates the contribution of any workgroup over another.
What I have said and will continue to say is that the level of pay one group gets relative to another has nothing to do with how well or how little you feel appreciated and everything to do with the market for your services.
Pilots get higher pay because they have been able to maintain a strong enough front to pressure airline mgmts. of their value and that was established after WWII when thousands of pilots came back from the military at the same time when commercial aviation was growing rapidly. There is a very small market for high paying pilot jobs outside of the airlines and the pilots - largely ALPA - recognized they had to push up the value of pilot services in order to maintain high salaries. Given that pilot strikes cripple airlines, few airlines have tried to break it. IN the regulated era, airlines took turns helping each other fight increasing labor costs thru joint economic assistance during strikes but that doesn't exist in the deregulated era. Witness what happened to UA in 2000 and you'll know why airlines have developed great friendships in Washington to ensure that pilot strikes go nowhere.
yet B6 is an example of what happens when a single company doesn't pay union wages in a workgroup where unions are the norm. B6 tried to play cheap and it backfired, even after throwing a bunch of money at the pilots to try to keep them out of unions.
So, you can ask DALPA and the dispatchers why they don't decertify but I suspect it is rooted very strongly in the reality that they are far more economically dependent on maintaining higher than average salaries than other workgroups at an airline and they have very little leverage without a union to do so.
and yet the exact opposite argument holds true for most other airline workgroups. Mechanics have semi-transferrable skills while nearly every other airline workgroup has skills that are highly transferrable to other industries - where pay is generally lower for the same job classification than it is in the airline industry.
Add in that DL employees have historically been paid and are currently paid above the averages for many of their peers and it is even harder to make an ECONOMIC argument for why labor unions make sense at DL.
The IAM's attempts at trying to compare DL pilot and FA salaries is evidence that they cannot win the argument based on a direct comparison of workgroups - and the fact that IAM represented FAs at UA/CO are fighting bitterly among themselves at the cost of the profession and it is not hard to see why the IAM and other unions want to do everything but make direct, honest comparisons - which they validate every time they fail to include profit sharing or show the number of pay raises in the industry for identical workgroups at both airlines.
feel free to tell us how the company is driving wedges between work groups, Kev, but what you really don't want to accept is that there is a market for the services of each workgroup and your workgroup has highly transferrable skills and you are paid based on that.
I'm all ears but I see no evidence and southwind and meto's posts validate that DL doesn't say that one group is worth more or less even despite the difference in pay.
And the company also doesn't say that some employees like executives deserve higher pay increases but the simple reality is that they have generated more wealth - increased production at a higher level - than any "production" employee group.
that reality is not targeted against anyone but is an honest assessment of the economic reality which exists not just at DL but at any workgroup in the free enterprise system.
nowhere, but nowhere, have I ever written that DL appreciates the contribution of any workgroup over another.
What I have said and will continue to say is that the level of pay one group gets relative to another has nothing to do with how well or how little you feel appreciated and everything to do with the market for your services.
Pilots get higher pay because they have been able to maintain a strong enough front to pressure airline mgmts. of their value and that was established after WWII when thousands of pilots came back from the military at the same time when commercial aviation was growing rapidly. There is a very small market for high paying pilot jobs outside of the airlines and the pilots - largely ALPA - recognized they had to push up the value of pilot services in order to maintain high salaries. Given that pilot strikes cripple airlines, few airlines have tried to break it. IN the regulated era, airlines took turns helping each other fight increasing labor costs thru joint economic assistance during strikes but that doesn't exist in the deregulated era. Witness what happened to UA in 2000 and you'll know why airlines have developed great friendships in Washington to ensure that pilot strikes go nowhere.
yet B6 is an example of what happens when a single company doesn't pay union wages in a workgroup where unions are the norm. B6 tried to play cheap and it backfired, even after throwing a bunch of money at the pilots to try to keep them out of unions.
So, you can ask DALPA and the dispatchers why they don't decertify but I suspect it is rooted very strongly in the reality that they are far more economically dependent on maintaining higher than average salaries than other workgroups at an airline and they have very little leverage without a union to do so.
and yet the exact opposite argument holds true for most other airline workgroups. Mechanics have semi-transferrable skills while nearly every other airline workgroup has skills that are highly transferrable to other industries - where pay is generally lower for the same job classification than it is in the airline industry.
Add in that DL employees have historically been paid and are currently paid above the averages for many of their peers and it is even harder to make an ECONOMIC argument for why labor unions make sense at DL.
The IAM's attempts at trying to compare DL pilot and FA salaries is evidence that they cannot win the argument based on a direct comparison of workgroups - and the fact that IAM represented FAs at UA/CO are fighting bitterly among themselves at the cost of the profession and it is not hard to see why the IAM and other unions want to do everything but make direct, honest comparisons - which they validate every time they fail to include profit sharing or show the number of pay raises in the industry for identical workgroups at both airlines.
feel free to tell us how the company is driving wedges between work groups, Kev, but what you really don't want to accept is that there is a market for the services of each workgroup and your workgroup has highly transferrable skills and you are paid based on that.
I'm all ears but I see no evidence and southwind and meto's posts validate that DL doesn't say that one group is worth more or less even despite the difference in pay.
And the company also doesn't say that some employees like executives deserve higher pay increases but the simple reality is that they have generated more wealth - increased production at a higher level - than any "production" employee group.
that reality is not targeted against anyone but is an honest assessment of the economic reality which exists not just at DL but at any workgroup in the free enterprise system.
Kev3188
Veteran
If you read WCDFA half as much as you make it sound, you'd know the answer...737823 said:
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