Huge pay raise for Delta/NW pilots..ONLY

[Kev3188]

Just an interested bystander here, who doesn't have a dog in this fight, but is concerned none the less since the situation is very similar.

I was just wondering how the IAM was laying out the groundwork for this battle to organize the New Delta (I'm talking ramp and Ticket agents only).

A few different ways.

They've established an office in ATL (right across from DL HQ, by the way...) so people can come in and get answers with out fear of recrimination, they have workers from both carriers hand billing in the terminal & parking lots who can also give out any info someone may want.

Across the system, there's a network in place to make sure that DL people can get the accurate info they need to make an informed decision. On top of that, the IAM is working hard to make sure we at NW are also getting the same.

Since IAM is the bargaining agent for your group, how are they going to present the issue to the Delta people who haven't had union representation? Are you guys trying to better the work rules, or trying to keep what you presently have?

What we have-even after BK-is miles ahead of what our counterparts at DL have. DL's base pay top out on the ramp is a "massive" .08 cents/hr. more than us (yes, really). Once people can clearly see what our CBA has to offer, there's no logical reason to vote no. even if you don't much care for unions, the financial reasons should sway most rationally thinking folks. For example, by paying $41.00/mo. in dues, I save well over a hundred on medical premiums.

And do you have enough people who will come over to the union side?

Tough to say. On the NW side (ramp), I'd be suprised if it's any lower than 95%. On the DL side, there's lots of A cards coming in, but that's the easy part; getting people to actually vote is the much bigger-and critical- hurdle.

Because I know personally that it would be tough to try to bring someone over to your side, especially if you have a younger workforce or a non-union workforce who had been treated fairly, even though they could be making more money and with better workrules.

That's just it. These guys have no idea what's coming down the pike. If the economy tanks (worse), who gets laid off first? The junior guys. Currently, at DL, they can only exercise their seniority if there's an open position. At NW, they can go anywhere their seniority will hold.

Next, let's say there's a guy that wants full time. Well, at DL, there's no cap on PT, so he may be stuck as PT forever. They've also already said that they will backfill a lot of the people leaving on Early Outs with "Ready Reserve" employees, who have no benefits, and can only work 999 hours/yr. max. AT NW there is a cap, so these guys have a fair shot. There's also a set system in place (seniority based) to award FT positions, so there's no risk of favoritism. We also don't have "ready reserve" in the same sense as DL. Our equivalent is "ready relief," and they are regular employees accorded the same benefits as everyone else.

Lastly, everyone likes $$$. That's human nature. As mentioned, we have a 5 year scale (10 if hired after Aug. of '06). A 7.5 year guy at DL makes $15.31. His counterpart at NW makes $18.16. So not only does the DL guy make less, he's going to do so for the next 3 years, while the NW guy continues to make the higher amount all the while.

On top of that, at NW, we get paid every 2 weeks (160 hours), while DL get paid "twice a month (173.3 hours), which further dilutes their scale. I have enough time to be at the top of either scale, but this HUGE for a LOT of people at both carriers. Frankly, I'm suprised it doesn't come up more often...

This will help organizing in a couple of ways; the $$$ will obviously appeal to the DL guy, while the NW one will be sure to vote to ensure he doesn't slide backward.

NOTE: These examples are fact, and are the first couple that jumped to mind. There are many more... This is why I have such a hard time when the DL apologists say "everyone at NW is gettting a raise to DL scales," or when Anderson talks about how DL'ers make more than "their union counterparts at NW."

When I commented that I would take a paycut, it's because my classifaction (crew chief) doesn't exist at DL. Currently, I get a $1.25/hr. over ride ($200/monthly). The closest equivalent at DL gets $135/monthly...

Does Delta have a pay scale where certain cites make more than others?

I honestly don't know. At NW, ANC & HNL do...

I'm just curious, because it seems that IAM has a lot on it's plate, and I think that it has it's resources focused on your situation above all else. But they sent letters saying that they are committed to us and are "In It To Win It" according to their literature. Or will they wait until after the elections and hope that the labor friendly bill in Congress will pass first where every one votes?

If they want to do a drive with just DL "alone," then they can at anytime. The smarter move would be to wait until we're declared a "single transportation system" by the DOJ, when they'll have the NW numbers on their side.

BTW: Our flight attendants aren't happy with the dues increase IAM just did. But they are certainly rooting for us to go Union!
I guess more members, less dues....lol!

Is this the 2% of gross earnings dues recalculation, or something else? If it's the 2%, I for it because we'll all pay the "same." The junior guys-who have the tightest budgets- pay less, and there's no wild disparities between locals/districts. Just my .02...

 

[brokenwrench]

Kev,
Are you a crew chief in Tech Ops or the ramp. Delta does have Leads in Tech Ops which carries a similar pay bump.

I THINK on the ramp they have team leader or something like that, perhaps somebody from that side of Delta can provide that information.

 

[1Conehead]

I was just wondering how the IAM was laying out the groundwork for this battle to organize the New Delta (I'm talking ramp and Ticket agents only). Since IAM is the bargaining agent for your group, how are they going to present the issue to the Delta people who haven't had union representation?

They have been buying us beer and wings.
And Delta has been giving us Chic-Fil-A and Koolaid.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev,
Are you a crew chief in Tech Ops or the ramp. Delta does have Leads in Tech Ops which carries a similar pay bump.

I'm on the ramp.

I THINK on the ramp they have team leader or something like that, perhaps somebody from that side of Delta can provide that information.

I've been told that the closest equivalent is the "Assign Load agent." I know there are Performance Leaders, but it's my understanding that they're management. I'd be interested to hear what the Team Leader job entails vis a vis my current duties, what (if any) override there is, etc....

 

[FWAAA]

On top of that, at NW, we get paid every 2 weeks (160 hours), while DL get paid "twice a month (173.3 hours), which further dilutes their scale. I have enough time to be at the top of either scale, but this HUGE for a LOT of people at both carriers. Frankly, I'm suprised it doesn't come up more often...

Frequency of paychecks doesn't alter how much money you make; those who get paid bi-weekly get 26 checks a year and those who get paid twice a month get 24 checks a year. Should equal the same amount of money. Or am I missing something here?

 

[Kev3188]

Frequency of paychecks doesn't alter how much money you make; those who get paid bi-weekly get 26 checks a year and those who get paid twice a month get 24 checks a year. Should equal the same amount of money. Or am I missing something here?

I don't if you are or not, FWAAA...

My checks at NW are for 160 hours. I was told by a friend at DL that when converting their monthly salary into an hourly rate that I needed to divide the total number by 173.3....

Nevertheless, it doesn't take away from the rest of my post.

 

[T5towbar]

Frequency of paychecks doesn't alter how much money you make; those who get paid bi-weekly get 26 checks a year and those who get paid twice a month get 24 checks a year. Should equal the same amount of money. Or am I missing something here?

We have the same thing where we get paid twice a month.
I really prefer the bi-weekly, even though there are gaps between paydays (almost 16 days this particular pay period alone). We used to have that, but that was changed along with the other work rules that I miss so much.
It kind of sets your budgeting a little better, but knowing your paydays is ok too.

As far as a pay, our "Market" cities are mainly the Northeast stations (BOS; LGA; PVD; JFK; EWR; BWI; ANC; etc start with more money. (MIA and SFO pays even more for reasons I don't know why), than everyone else in the "System", but we all top out the same (around 11 or so years - used to be about 8 - I think). At least lead pay (CSA Team Leader is 1.75 per hr.....lol!) And you don't lose any seniority or benefits between working FT & PT. A lot of guys like that because some have other day jobs, and working here at the hub is good where you can always pick up extra hours in day trading and such.

All I'm saying is I hope that no one loses in this deal, and you have to be concerned in this because this merger will define the shape of things to come as far as pay. My nephew got the job as a "Ready Reserve" and they gave him a schedule which will be a lot of work during the next couple of months. But there is no guarantee after that stint is over, he will have a regular bid with Delta, unless the station situations are completed. At least i think it's better than DGS.

BTW: It's the earning dues recalculation, I think at 2%.

 

[brokenwrench]

I don't if you are or not, FWAAA...

My checks at NW are for 160 hours. I was told by a friend at DL that when converting their monthly salary into an hourly rate that I needed to divide the total number by 173.3....

Nevertheless, it doesn't take away from the rest of my post.

Kev,
For what it is worth if you are paid by weekly at 80 hrs a check it comes out to 2080 hours a year.
Paid by monthly at DL at 173.32 hours a month comes out to 2079.84 paid hours a year.

With no time clocks at DL I highly doubt the company is "getting over" on the employees as far pay on this issue.

 

[Kev3188]

BTW: It's the earning dues recalculation, I think at 2%.

2% of gross wages is correct. Thanks for the other info; that's good stuff...

Kev,
For what it is worth if you are paid by weekly at 80 hrs a check it comes out to 2080 hours a year.
Paid by monthly at DL at 173.32 hours a month comes out to 2079.84 paid hours a year.

BW--

Thanks for the math lesson...

As mentioned, I was going by what a DL'er I know told me when it came to converting the salary into hour rates.....

So the "rates" are the same regardless of whether or not you use 160 or 173.3... Still raises the issue of the 11 year vs. 5 year scale...

 

[brokenwrench]

2% of gross wages is correct. Thanks for the other info; that's good stuff...




BW--

Thanks for the math lesson...

As mentioned, I was going by what a DL'er I know told me when it came to converting the salary into hour rates.....

So the "rates" are the same regardless of whether or not you use 160 or 173.3... Still raises the issue of the 11 year vs. 5 year scale...

You are dead on regarding the time to top out issue.
8+ years seams to be industry average but now that Delta will be the largest airline in the world they should be an industry leader in terms of compensation and productivity for each employee

 

[T5towbar]

You are dead on regarding the time to top out issue.
8+ years seams to be industry average but now that Delta will be the largest airline in the world they should be an industry leader in terms of compensation and productivity for each employee

Yeah. That's about right.
That's one of the things we lost during concessions, along with shift differential; 10 to12 % pay cut; holidays like "Day after Thanksgiving"etc; - you get the idea.
Things like that are what we lost during "concessions" without representation. That's what a lot of us remember, and hope that we can get some of that back. But the younger guys don't know about all of the good stuff we had. The only thing we didn't lose is the on-time bonuses (for being in the top 3 or more for being on top of the 6 - now 5 network carriers).

Let's see what happens after the elections and see how the IAM plays this one out.
I would think since Delta will be the biggest US carrier, it would be wise to have the best paid employees, with the best benefit package among the major 5 carriers (I'm not including SW, because they are the best compensated in the industry - even though they are represented by TWU. BTW: Anyone knows why did AA's agents took a lot of concessions with a TWU contract? Aren't AA and SW contracts similar in scope and clause?

 

[Kev3188]

... but now that Delta will be the largest airline in the world they should be an industry leader in terms of compensation and productivity for each employee

Amen. The sooner, the better.

BTW: Anyone knows why did AA's agents took a lot of concessions with a TWU contract? Aren't AA and SW contracts similar in scope and clause?

Basically, they were sold a bill of goods saying that in return for concessions, lots of jobs would be saved. They were shown what was known as the "Vermont Plan," which was a worst case scenario; a sort of "this is what will happen if you don't ratify the agreement."

Shortly thereafter, Carty was caught lying about the executive retention programs, and was forced to resign. Jim Little of the TWU refused to revoke their ratification (or revote).

If you go over to the AA boards, there's quite a lot of threads about it. Posters such as Bob Owens or Ken MacTiernan can answer this much better than I can...

As for WN, I think they have much better scope than AA. Also, very little usage of PT, while AA uses quite a bit. Just my .02...

 

[FWAAA]

BTW: Anyone knows why did AA's agents took a lot of concessions with a TWU contract? Aren't AA and SW contracts similar in scope and clause?

I'd say that Kev3188 gave a fair summary of why AA's ramp and mechanics took the concessions.

You used "agents," and although you might have meant ramp (baggage, fleet service clerks, etc), agents at AA (ticket, counter, gate, etc) are non-union. TWU represents WN agents but not AA agents.

 

[Airlinelifer]

I'd say that Kev3188 gave a fair summary of why AA's ramp and mechanics took the concessions.

You used "agents," and although you might have meant ramp (baggage, fleet service clerks, etc), agents at AA (ticket, counter, gate, etc) are non-union. TWU represents WN agents but not AA agents.

AT SWA, I think its TWU - Ramp and IAM - Tickets/Gate Agents.

 

[T5towbar]

What I meant to say was "ramp agents".