Pilots, AF/KL Could Take Stake in DL/NW Merger

[luv2fly]

Not quite...NW has never placed options that it didn't fill (cept the A340)

Therefore, Delta brings 120 widebodies 767s/ 16 777 (including on order) NWA brings 129 744s/787s/A330s/13 742 F (including orders & options) a brand new fleet I might add (x the 400s)

I don't think you are going to get many NW pilots to give up, over the next 10 years 787s, A330s for someone to jump 3-5 years ahead of them. Pay scale is a matter of a few years vs. a career term.

There is no upside for Northwest employees (that we don't already have, except a larger foot print)

According to the latest ALPA EFA analysis: Current fleet shots as of 1-08. Does not include orders or options.

DL narrowbodies:332, NW narrowbodies:304 of which 103 are DC-9's

DL widebodies:112, NW widebodies: 60

DL AC total: 444, NW AC total: 364

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

luv2fly,

Your forgetting something.

BA-AA + "JL" !!!!!!!!!

With the exception of NW needing SA, everyone else is Global(Except DL)

If DL/NW goes down( read all of NxNW's posts), DL will be in a MAD scramble, that will Include UA, WHO by the way, will NOT be giving up It's name


I DO give DL an "A" for effort/trying,..................but they are showing signs of being a tad desperate IMHO.

Like everything else, ...911 screwed up the AA/TWA thing. AA/TWA would have gone "off" a LOT smoother, which is something I know, you would have agreed upon.


And finally,......."the RA-RA-RA thing(for me) comes from....Not Leo Mullin.........Not Ron Allen,.........BUT,....from the MASTER himself....("uncle") Bobby CRANDALL !!

(Hey,...where do you think the....AArrogance comes from) ??

 

[757inthebarrel]

Not quite...NW has never placed options that it didn't fill (cept the A340)

Therefore, Delta brings 120 widebodies 767s/ 16 777 (including on order) NWA brings 129 744s/787s/A330s/13 742 F (including orders & options) a brand new fleet I might add (x the 400s)

I don't think you are going to get many NW pilots to give up, over the next 10 years 787s, A330s for someone to jump 3-5 years ahead of them. Pay scale is a matter of a few years vs. a career term.

There is no upside for Northwest employees (that we don't already have, except a larger foot print)

DL also has 120 757s that pay the same as the 767. The 787s, while nice to have, are roughly the same size as the 767 (smaller than the 767-400) and will be unlikely to pay much more. The big fly in the ointment will be the 35+ year old DC-9s. DL retired their's over 15 years ago and has retired much more modern and efficient fleets than that in the last 6 years. I've worked for both companies and the bottom line is that it's much more likely for a DL pilot to be on a higher paying aircraft than it is for a NW pilot.

This isn't being done to make a better airline. We'd all be better off, career wise, going it alone. It's being done to enrich the institutional investors. Since we are just along for the ride, I hope they can work out a deal that is acceptable to both sides. Date of hire though, I don't think will be part of the equation from the pilot side. Best of luck to you.

 

[North by Northwest]

"AA just has indigestion and can't eat any more right now."

That is funny as hell!

I did not know that about Delta's 75 pay/ no idea what ours is.. Well, I hope it works out for all. I don't see why ALPA doesn't include on order and options...THEY come with the merger, esp. if their arrival is imminent. Those 68 787s are extremely long haul which means very large pay checks, I don't think a 75, even with that pay can replace a 787 pay (including trip) and a left seat. I don't see NWA pilots giving that up. I could be wrong. I wouldn't. I know one thing...DOH is the LEAST that will happen for NW Cabin Crew.

I think it is absurd for NW to be putting itself up for sale anyway, based on our position, as do quite a few powerful politicians and thousands of employees. This is fueled by greed...and nothing more.

I don't think many of us want it, if it happens make the best of it, but we have a long way to go, even after the announcement. When the DOJ approves it then we must move forward together.

NxNW over and out.

 

[luv2fly]

luv2fly,

Your forgetting something.

BA-AA + "JL" !!!!!!!!!

With the exception of NW needing SA, everyone else is Global(Except DL)

But that is exactly my point. You said the big 5 are global. Who exactly are your including in your five? By your defenition, NW is not global. UA and US are traling DL and AA in Latin America as well. NW's Latin presence is just as pathetic as DL's Pacific operation. Now you combine the two and what do you get?
I guess it all depends on what your defintion of "is" is.

 

[North by Northwest]

According to the latest ALPA EFA analysis: Current fleet shots as of 1-08. Does not include orders or options.

DL narrowbodies:332, NW narrowbodies:304 of which 103 are DC-9's

DL widebodies:112, NW widebodies: 60

DL AC total: 444, NW AC total: 364

The difference being Delta having only 8 777 a/c on order and 119 MD 80 and a ca zillion narrow bodies on order. I left out the 36 767 options by mistake.

It would be ridiculous to ignore a/c on order for the sake of giving someone elese your Lseat senority. I wouldn't do it. Hey, but it's on them. I don't see it happening. They are not in a position where they NEED to give up their company for the sake of flying.

It is Northwest that arguably has the most solid future of all legacies. That was achieved on the backs of NW employees and we are not about to hand it over with out a fight just so some greedy little pigs at a Hedge fund can cash out. Delta is a good airline with lots of good people. Clearly, Delta people weren't in a hurry to give up their name. Ours has a longer history and is not in need of retiring. (just being frank)

Northwest will not dissapear quietly, regardless of what Steenland and Anderson "dream of" ... Oberstar will see to that.

best to all!

 

[Guinness1]

IF there is a merger the 330's will fade away and NO 330's will be delivered. IF there is a merger NW's 787's are never going to show up. DAL does not want the first model, not enough capability for the role they envision. IF there is a merger the 9's and older 74's are gone real fast at $90 oil. So that leaves a LOT of NW pilots looking for seats and there is NO WAY DAL pilots will sit back and allow those guys to take seats the DAL guys bought at the loss of their pensions, benefits and half their pay. So date of hire, which seems high on the NW wish list, is DOA. It would have to be relative seniority with fences or the deal will die. Letting it die would be fine with most DAL guys it seems. There does not seem to be any gain for the DAL pilots, just some old 74's, ancient 9's and some 330's that would go the way of the Pan Am busses. And we can't forget MSP and DTW. Just like with the Pan Am acquisition, there will be lots of guys looking for seats and not enough to go around. DAL guys were not real happy hitting the bricks as Pan Am planes got removed from the fleet. NW is a great airline, but the fleets and seniority lists are just too different. Pilot-wise there is no fit with the DAL pilots, especially since mergers don't bring out the best in people. Too many reasons get invented for justifying screwing the other group and the end result is a mess. So hopefully this thing will die at the hands of one or more of the many entities lining up against it. It will be better to let CO and UAL merge and watch from a distance than to be in the trenches with a knife fighting it out over seniority. Let's get on with 'Keep Northwest Northwest'. We will join you in the effort.

 

[North by Northwest]

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflas...htm?chan=search



I don't think you will be in charge of Fleet planning, furthermore, the A330s are newer than anything Delta has flying. Your mission now, will not be the "mission" under a Delta/NWA.

Delta is unable to secure 787's -8- or 9 for quite a number of years. So, yes they would be showing up.

Are all 119 MD80's paid for? Let's not forget they are just dressed up 1980 vs. of the DC-9.
"entered service in 1980. Originally it was certified as a version of the DC-9, but was changed to MD-80 in July 1983, as a marketing move. New versions of the series were initially the MD-81/82/83 and the shortened MD-87, even though their formal certification was DC-9-81/82 etc. Only the MD-88 was given an "MD" certification" And the age of that massive fleet of 757-200s is?

MSP/DTW..and you have...Atlanta,and SLC which is important because of? I should not leave out Pan Am's NY operation. Which, despite your reference to them is the reason Delta is still around.Delta would be insignificant with out Pan Am's ops. Our Tokyo operation alone (not including our 1 1/2 acre of prime central Tokyo property) is more valuable than Atl. Let alone unrestrained growth and low LCC incursion into MSP DTW.

Sorry bud, you are deluding yourself if you think Delta is bring more to the table than NW. Asia is the future of profits...not Macon, or Eastern Europe.

I would be more worried about pressure from Hedge funds and balance sheet than NW pilots looking for jobs....They will definitely be working, their legacy leading financials guarantee that...even with a recession coming, and oil at $100.

Thanks for the offer of help...but you have your hands full with the "Keep my Delta, Delta" party.

 

[Airlinelifer]

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflas...htm?chan=search



I don't think you will be in charge of Fleet planning, furthermore, the A330s are newer than anything Delta has flying. Your mission now, will not be the "mission" under a Delta/NWA.

Delta is unable to secure 787's -8- or 9 for quite a number of years. So, yes they would be showing up.

Are all 119 MD80's paid for? Let's not forget they are just dressed up 1980 vs. of the DC-9.
"entered service in 1980. Originally it was certified as a version of the DC-9, but was changed to MD-80 in July 1983, as a marketing move. New versions of the series were initially the MD-81/82/83 and the shortened MD-87, even though their formal certification was DC-9-81/82 etc. Only the MD-88 was given an "MD" certification" And the age of that massive fleet of 757-200s is?

MSP/DTW..and you have...Atlanta,and SLC which is important because of? I should not leave out Pan Am's NY operation. Which, despite your reference to them is the reason Delta is still around.Delta would be insignificant with out Pan Am's ops. Our Tokyo operation alone (not including our 1 1/2 acre of prime central Tokyo property) is more valuable than Atl. Let alone unrestrained growth and low LCC incursion into MSP DTW.

Sorry bud, you are deluding yourself if you think Delta is bring more to the table than NW. Asia is the future of profits...not Macon, or Eastern Europe.

I would be more worried about pressure from Hedge funds and balance sheet than NW pilots looking for jobs....They will definitely be working, their legacy leading financials guarantee that...even with a recession coming, and oil at $100.

Thanks for the offer of help...but you have your hands full with the "Keep my Delta, Delta" party.

I would love to have someone come up with a button "Keep Delta Your Delta"!

 

[lpbrian]

Sorry for being a bit late. My big question is why do only the pilots deserve a stake and no one else? Is this a new corporate culture where the only thing that matters in the scheme of things are managment and pilots?

 

[lpbrian]

The difference being Delta having only 8 777 a/c on order and 119 MD 80 and a ca zillion narrow bodies on order. I left out the 36 767 options by mistake.

It would be ridiculous to ignore a/c on order for the sake of giving someone elese your Lseat senority. I wouldn't do it. Hey, but it's on them. I don't see it happening. They are not in a position where they NEED to give up their company for the sake of flying.

It is Northwest that arguably has the most solid future of all legacies. That was achieved on the backs of NW employees and we are not about to hand it over with out a fight just so some greedy little pigs at a Hedge fund can cash out. Delta is a good airline with lots of good people. Clearly, Delta people weren't in a hurry to give up their name. Ours has a longer history and is not in need of retiring. (just being frank)

Northwest will not dissapear quietly, regardless of what Steenland and Anderson "dream of" ... Oberstar will see to that.

best to all!

Oberbonehead has no say in the matter.

 

[lpbrian]

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflas...htm?chan=search



I don't think you will be in charge of Fleet planning, furthermore, the A330s are newer than anything Delta has flying. Your mission now, will not be the "mission" under a Delta/NWA.

Delta is unable to secure 787's -8- or 9 for quite a number of years. So, yes they would be showing up.

Are all 119 MD80's paid for? Let's not forget they are just dressed up 1980 vs. of the DC-9.
"entered service in 1980. Originally it was certified as a version of the DC-9, but was changed to MD-80 in July 1983, as a marketing move. New versions of the series were initially the MD-81/82/83 and the shortened MD-87, even though their formal certification was DC-9-81/82 etc. Only the MD-88 was given an "MD" certification" And the age of that massive fleet of 757-200s is?

MSP/DTW..and you have...Atlanta,and SLC which is important because of? I should not leave out Pan Am's NY operation. Which, despite your reference to them is the reason Delta is still around.Delta would be insignificant with out Pan Am's ops. Our Tokyo operation alone (not including our 1 1/2 acre of prime central Tokyo property) is more valuable than Atl. Let alone unrestrained growth and low LCC incursion into MSP DTW.

Sorry bud, you are deluding yourself if you think Delta is bring more to the table than NW. Asia is the future of profits...not Macon, or Eastern Europe.

I would be more worried about pressure from Hedge funds and balance sheet than NW pilots looking for jobs....They will definitely be working, their legacy leading financials guarantee that...even with a recession coming, and oil at $100.

Thanks for the offer of help...but you have your hands full with the "Keep my Delta, Delta" party.

So whats your point? We all know what scabair brings to the table...

 

[lpbrian]

And the age of that massive fleet of 757-200s is?

About as old as Scabairs 757's

 

[757inthebarrel]

Sorry for being a bit late. My big question is why do only the pilots deserve a stake and no one else? Is this a new corporate culture where the only thing that matters in the scheme of things are managment and pilots?

I think you'll see the pot split among all the employee groups. I could be wrong but I'd be very surprised if everyone didn't get a little hush money in return for making it easier for the wall street types to make the really big money.

 

[North by Northwest]

And the age of that massive fleet of 757-200s is?

About as old as Scabairs 757's

Duh, uh, oh, ma...deep onliners there. Limited language skills? My point is way above your ability to grasp.

Lots of big mouths from the sidelines who DID NOTHING. Has DONE NOTHING, most likely will DO NOTHING. (esp. while Bush is in office) At their airline or anyone else's.