Fired On Sick List Update

[TWAnr]

Are you acknowledging that the 1,000 plus were faking it or are you implying that only a small number of them were faking it?

I am not an epidemiologist and I do not have to raw data from which to draw the conclusions regarding how many were legitimately sick and how many were abusing their sick leave.

I do know that we were at the height of the flu epidemic over the holiday season.

 

[Garfield1966]

It happens every year like clock work. The sick list doubles durring Christnmas and new years. You can try to spin it any way you want, the result is the same.

Flu my ass. The flu does not know when christmas is.

 

[mjk]

It happens every year like clock work. The sick list doubles durring Christnmas and new years. You can try to spin it any way you want, the result is the same.

Flu my ass. The flu does not know when christmas is.

Breathe Garfield, breathe... :blink: ..TWAnr said s/he doesn't have the data that you have.

Only a select number of people see the infamous spike upward that happens around 21/22 Dec, then goes down a little around 27/28 Dec, then starts spiking back upward again around 29Dec and really doesn't settle down until 5/6 Jan.

TWAnr was right in saying that the flu came early this year....Nov/Dec timeframe.
Even if you say 250-300 of that was an actual sk increase, you still can't explain where 2,300 came from.

Jimntx...........another excellent post. Hopefully you get to come back sooner rather than later.

 

[skyangelnflight]

When there are people out of work that want to work, abuses should be dealt with. It is true that someone with a broken leg, or torn knee should be able to non-rev, but the rules do not allow it. And I agree with the poster that said, this rule should be something the union is working on.

It fit's hand in glove with the bad checks that were being passed, to the point some hotels were not going to accept any checks from AA employees.

This kind of stuff is needs to be stopped. And I'm not talking about someone really sick, or someone that didn't balance their check book and it was an honest mistake.

Those that abuse the rules make everyone suffer. My vote is can the abusers, not punish the entire work-force. And please notice I said, "the abusers".

I know sickness happens. I have been sick 4 times since Christmas. And I mean on my back SICK!! But thank God, it doesn't happen every year!

When I first started flying I got bronchitis and was sick over Christmas. I went back to work sick, on one of those Z-packs!! I'm sure the people flying with me loved it, but because of the abuse of others, and the lousy policy, I felt "forced" to work sick and not be out over Christmas and New Years. Yes, I had a doctors note, but the threat of your job when your new is very intimidating.

 

[LiveInAHotel]

Are you acknowledging that the 1,000 plus were faking it or are you implying that only a small number of them were faking it?

Can you prove that any of the f/a's were faking it over the holidays? Flight Attendants also call in sick to take care of their kids, husband/wife and family members, when they're sick too. If you don't like what happens over the holidays, then quit, find another career or another airline. Here is an airline that fits your profile: No Union for Flight Attendants!

P.S. Halloween is the biggest sick day of the year! But, you're Joe Cool Crew Scheduler and already knew that.

 

[mweiss]

Can you prove that any of the f/a's were faking it over the holidays?

For the moment, let's step back and talk in a total theoretical sense, shall we?

Is it your stance that people should be able to use sick days as vacation days? That is, do you believe that people should be able to call in sick because they simply don't want to go to work, for whatever reason, rather than need to stay home, due to unplanned family illness?

A simple yes or no will suffice, though I'd like even more to have an explanation for why you choose your answer.

Actually, I'd love to hear the answer to that question from NH/BB as well.

 

[Garfield1966]

NO!

In my opinion the sick policy is for when the employee is sick and unable to work. It is not a supplemental vacation.

I know you asked hotel boy but I had to pipe in.

Hotel, you are dense beyond belief. If the average sick count is 1,000 but during the holidays it more than doubles, then the number of FA’s on the sick list above the yearly average are lying through their teeth. If a family member is ill, then the FA’s should be taking a PO. Even if family members are ill, that does not explain a sick count more then double the yearly average.

No, I will not quit. I will fight to hold people like you and your ilk accountable for their actions. Besides, I thought you were going to get me fired? Where is your complaint by the way? I still have not heard anything.

OH, by the way … “Here’s your sign.â€￾

MJK, they know damn well what’s going on just as well as You and I do.

OK, almost all of them do. Hotel boy thinks Halloween is but I do not ever recall having difficulty scheduling around Halloween. Must be from the short bus.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

It happens every year like clock work. The sick list doubles durring Christnmas and new years. You can try to spin it any way you want, the result is the same.

Flu my ass. The flu does not know when christmas is.

garfield1966,("VERY intelligent and LOGICAL-1/2 the time") !!!!!

Speaking of numbers "doubleing"(increasing),mabey if AA starts "breaking chops" over holiday F/A sick time, then another AA program will increase MORE than it is ALREADY,

FAMILY LEAVE !!!!!!!!!! (THanx President Clinton)

?????????

NH/BB's

 

[FA Mikey]

It happens every year like clock work. The sick list doubles durring Christnmas and new years. You can try to spin it any way you want, the result is the same.

Flu my ass. The flu does not know when christmas is.

That's true, but let me ask you this when was the last time you saw CNN or any others news organization announce information about the upcoming summer flu season? Turns out its fall and winter. Also the planes are full all the vacationers small kids who are incredible at passing germs between each other and others around them. The cold weather. Crews flying from cold NY to hot Miami then off to freezing ORD. Probably in your book makes no matter, on the normal body. Many people are legitimately ill, and some are not. That's how it goes here and every other place of business that chooses to stay open for Christmas.

 

[jimntx]

Many people are legitimately ill, and some are not. That's how it goes here and every other place of business that chooses to stay open for Christmas.

Yes, Mikey, and the only point made at the start of this thread was that the "some who are not really sick" but seem well enough to go non-revving around the system while on sick leave should have to pay for breaking the rules.

I think you can agree that people who don't show up to work in our profession have a different effect than in others.

If a number of cashiers at Safeway call in sick over a holiday, the result will be that either management types will have to operate the registers, or you might have to stand in line a little (or a lot) longer and you're ice cream will melt, or both.

If a number of flight attendants decide that "it's not fair that I have to work the holidays; so, I'll just call in sick", flights get cancelled meaning a lot of other people don't get paid or don't get to THEIR Christmas destination. OR, (and this is the one that chaps my butt) a number of people who are supposed to be your colleagues, friends, and fellow union members, are forced to work on that holiday when they could have been at home with their families on ready reserve. I don't mind covering for someone who is truly sick (in fact, on reserve I would rather fly than sit at home), but why should I have to work simply because you don't want to?

I realize that you are probably senior enough that you don't have to serve reserve. But, one of the things that I have noticed about APFA members is that if it doesn't affect them personally they see no need to be concerned about it at all. (And, I'm not saying that this is true in your case, but if the shoe fits...) This is not unionism. This sort of attitude will jump up and bite these people in the behind one day. Look at what's happening at United with the retiree medical benefits. There is some indication that the AFA knew all along that the company was planning to renege on contributions to the retiree plan, but they kept quiet because it didn't affect the still working flight attendants.

Either a union is for and supports ALL its members or it becomes ripe for a representation election at some point. And, support does not mean protecting the jobs of lazy, selfish flight attendants who don't want the job enough to show up when they're supposed to.

And, as far as your comment that that is just the way of the world for companies that are open on holidays...No. In most businesses, the people who call in sick every holiday are FIRED. People who are regularly absent with a "stomach virus" on Fridays and Mondays are FIRED. People who consistently show up late to work are FIRED. I'm not advocating mass flight attendant firings, but if the facts are that you called in sick and then went non-revving to visit family or to a vacation destination, whether on a holiday or not, you do not deserve to be a flight attendant.

Some flight attendants at AA seem to have lost sight of the fact that actions have consequences, and if you break the rules you deserve to pay whatever price has been set for the infraction. AFTER you break the rules is the wrong time to say that termination is too harsh a punishment. I learned in training that non-revving while on the sick list is a termination offense. Now, if I didn't like that, I had a choice not to take the job.

Look at it from a safety standpoint. You are knocked out in an emergency landing. The Captain orders an evacuation because the a/c is on fire. The rule is that flight attendants do not exit the plane until they are sure that they have done all they can to remove all passengers and crew from the a/c. Do you want to trust your survival to someone who has so little regard for his/her fellow flight attendants that they have called in sick every Christmas for the past 3 years just because they wanted the time off and couldn't hold it?

 

[LiveInAHotel]

For the moment, let's step back and talk in a total theoretical sense, shall we?

Is it your stance that people should be able to use sick days as vacation days? That is, do you believe that people should be able to call in sick because they simply don't want to go to work, for whatever reason, rather than need to stay home, due to unplanned family illness?

A simple yes or no will suffice, though I'd like even more to have an explanation for why you choose your answer.

Actually, I'd love to hear the answer to that question from NH/BB as well.

It's your earned sick time, use it how you wish!

If the company and it's Kool-AAid drinkers (Garfield1966 & operaations) want the sick time lower during the holidays, maybe AA should let us put our sick time towards vacation. Since most of us have hundreds of sick hours, it might be a good idea.

Garfield1966 girlie, you still haven't answered my question. Can you prove any f/a's were faking it over the holidays? Until you can I would keep that Kool-AAid trap shut!

BTW Garfield1966 girlie, it takes time to review all of the complaints against you!! I bet you wish you had a Union now! FYI, Halloween is the biggest sick day of the year. Since you're such the pro-compAAny employee, you should already know that. Go back into SABRE and look at the past 10 years and see how high Halloween is compared to Christmas.

 

[jimntx]

It's your earned sick time, use it how you wish! If the company and it's Kool-AAid drinkers (Garfield1966 & operaations) want the sick time lower during the holidays, maybe AA should let us put our sick time towards vacation. Since most of us have hundreds of sick hours, it might be a good idea.

Wrong, Hotel. Take it from someone who used to be in management in a major corporation. You will be hard pressed to find a single court that would rule that your sick leave is yours to use for anything other than when you are sick. Sick leave is a benefit granted by an employer, it is not a right under the law. There are cases where the courts upheld the firing of employees who had plenty of sick leave, but were caught doing something like partying in a bar when they were supposed to be home sick. It doesn't even have to be a pattern of abuse if it's well documented.

As to your having hundreds of hours, good for you. That indicates to me that you do not abuse your sick leave. I would be willing to bet you that the people we have been talking about--those who call in sick when they are not sick--have little accrued sick leave. They accrue a day and take a day. That chicken comes home to roost when those people have a true illness (personal or family) and they have no sick leave to fall back on. And, it has been my experience over the years that those are also the people who start yelling "NOT FAIR" when they have exhausted what little sick leave they have, have run through their 12 weeks of FMLA mandated by the Feds, and then expect the company to keep their job open for them until they decide to return. That is not reality.

There seem to be a lot of people who have somehow convinced themselves that "whatever I want to do is my constitutional right to do." Consider the people who scream that their "rights" are being violated because they are not allowed to foul the air with cigarette smoke anytime and anywhere they want. And, I used to be one of those people. The difference is that I decided after smoking for 30 years that a. it wasn't good for me, and b. it was getting to be way too much of a hassle to find a place to smoke.

Again, I do not condone the company harassment of flight attendants for taking sick leave when they are sick, but when you make a bogus sick call just because you weren't able to hold St. Swithin's Day off, and then I have to get out of a nice warm bed in the middle of the night to cover for you, you gonna go on ma list.

 

[jimntx]

You know, we've been going back and forth on this for several days now, and something just occurred to me. I spent over 20 years in the computer business. I can't begin to describe to you how simple it would be to program a suspension of your travel benefits any time you call in sick and reinstate it instantaneously when you clear sick. Your sick leave and your travel benefits are tied to your employee number. I can't believe the company hasn't done it before now if it's that big a deal to them.

 

[LiveInAHotel]

jimntx, no I don't abuse my sick time. But, when my kids are or I'm, I will call in until I'm capable of returning. Yes, I will admit I have used a sick day or two in my years of flying when I actually wasn't sick (I know I'm not the only one).

We do have the super abusers of the sick policy. But, now with the short layovers and long duty days, we will continue to see a climb in sick use (get ready Garfield1966 and operaations).

Sick time just isn't for you. It's also for when your kids or husband/wife are so sick they can't move an inch. Some f/a's have elderly parents who need help and use it for that.

 

[jimntx]

jimntx, no I don't abuse my sick time. But, when my kids are or I'm, I will call in until I'm capable of returning. Yes, I will admit I have used a sick day or two in my years of flying when I actually wasn't sick (I know I'm not the only one).

We do have the super abusers of the sick policy. But, now with the short layovers and long duty days, we will continue to see a climb in sick use (get ready Garfield1966 and operaations).

Sick time just isn't for you. It's also for when your kids or husband/wife are so sick they can't move an inch. Some f/a's have elderly parents who need help and use it for that.

To paraphrase the poet, "Is there a man with soul so dead who never to himself hath said, I need me a mental health day."

I agree with everything you said. Furthermore, I don't think that operaations or garfield would disagree with a thing you said.

But, in the final analysis, there is no defense for the phenomenon of the sick list doubling a few days before Christmas then miraculously going back down after Christmas year after year. I don't buy it, and I don't think you do either. Particularly when it is the same people over and over.

No wonder the company considers APFA a joke and a pushover when they defend to the death those worms, and let vital work rules like rest periods and furlough pay, and vacation time go by the boards.

When I first started at Texaco, there were still a number of men working there who had fought in WWII. When us young Turks would get all worked up over something like a dispute with another department, those vets would invariably ask, "Is this a hill you want to die on?"

It's a way of putting things in perspective. Is saving the job of someone who doesn't even want the job enough to show up as scheduled more important to you than layover rest? I doubt it.