Updated Flight Attendant Sick Policy
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PITbull
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- Dec 29, 2002
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Mark,
Please cite how many ITD crews have been called out past 11 pm in the past 6 months? If you say it occurs quite often, you are not being forthright with facts.
Let me refresh your limited memory. "Sick on assignment" is basicially NEW infraction. No such animal in our contract. You know very well, that before this management, if a f/a had no trip in their line for the week, but were ill and needed to claim some kind of trip, they picked a trip off the bid sheet and "sicked" it so they could claim the hours from their bank, because they would be missing a week of flying which if not ill, they would be flying. Now, that is basically "sick" on assignment. Reserves could do that as well OR if a trip was flown junior to them while ill, they could claim that, which ever was greater (daily rate, or the junior trip). Now, if a reserve gets awarded a trip, and they are ill because they couldn't see if crew sched was going to get to them, they say they are ill. YOU automatically assume they are liars. Where did you get that? I admit, there is fruad in every depart including management when it comes to "lost time". But, to assume everyone is lying, leads me to believe that management believes deep down that the policies and environment they created for their employees, may be so profoundly adverse and affecting morale, that apathy has set in. Whether this is actually true or not, no one knows. Its just assumptions that If have drawn from observation.
Bottom line, our group is sick. Now, how do we define "sick"? Management would not need to put in place these kinds of "dehuman' policies, if they would change the environment in which people work in. You admit, morale is bad. Do you think you can just "will it" and employees will change their outlook? Is there a future here? For everyone? Or just senior people? How do you know, there is a future here? Do you think that those thoughts have no effect on employees' morale? Do you think you can discipline people into being loyal, productive employees? If not, what is the goal here?
HR Industrial Psych 101.
Please cite how many ITD crews have been called out past 11 pm in the past 6 months? If you say it occurs quite often, you are not being forthright with facts.
Let me refresh your limited memory. "Sick on assignment" is basicially NEW infraction. No such animal in our contract. You know very well, that before this management, if a f/a had no trip in their line for the week, but were ill and needed to claim some kind of trip, they picked a trip off the bid sheet and "sicked" it so they could claim the hours from their bank, because they would be missing a week of flying which if not ill, they would be flying. Now, that is basically "sick" on assignment. Reserves could do that as well OR if a trip was flown junior to them while ill, they could claim that, which ever was greater (daily rate, or the junior trip). Now, if a reserve gets awarded a trip, and they are ill because they couldn't see if crew sched was going to get to them, they say they are ill. YOU automatically assume they are liars. Where did you get that? I admit, there is fruad in every depart including management when it comes to "lost time". But, to assume everyone is lying, leads me to believe that management believes deep down that the policies and environment they created for their employees, may be so profoundly adverse and affecting morale, that apathy has set in. Whether this is actually true or not, no one knows. Its just assumptions that If have drawn from observation.
Bottom line, our group is sick. Now, how do we define "sick"? Management would not need to put in place these kinds of "dehuman' policies, if they would change the environment in which people work in. You admit, morale is bad. Do you think you can just "will it" and employees will change their outlook? Is there a future here? For everyone? Or just senior people? How do you know, there is a future here? Do you think that those thoughts have no effect on employees' morale? Do you think you can discipline people into being loyal, productive employees? If not, what is the goal here?
HR Industrial Psych 101.
MarkMyWords
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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Yes we have called out a considerable number of crews between 11p and 1a due to orignial crews running out of time due to mtc issues, etc. How many crews have we called at 6am to report to the airport for an 8am departure? How many crews have we called at 11am for a 1pm departure? NONE!
These are the NORMAL hours of operation for the ITD. If you are reesrve and did not get a trip departing at 5-9p, then you have to know there is always the possibility that you can be called at 1am if there is a problem. That is called logic boys and girls. If there is going to be an issue with ITD flights, it is going to be late at night when the original crew runs out of time.
As for Sick on Assignment.....it is my belief that the company is just asking that if you are on reserve and you are unable to work during that duty period that you let them know. I am sure they could care less if you are sick on your OFF days.....but technically, when you are on duty.....you are available to work and are getting paid (if you call guarantee getting paid.)
Thank you for acknowledging the fraud, and yes it is rampant in all departments. Ground Serivces has had a very similar policy as it relates to their work environment for years (minus the pay penalty - which I have acknowledged is ridiculous). It is hard to believe someone is not lying if the minute you tell them you are assigning them a trip and suddenly they are sick. But hey, that could just be me.
As for morale.......you bet I believe it is bad......Dave doesn't help with the doom and gloom either....and I agree that there is a long road to travelt o make it better....and yes this won't help either....but it needs to be addressed. Should we wait until morale is better before addressing attendance issues?
These are the NORMAL hours of operation for the ITD. If you are reesrve and did not get a trip departing at 5-9p, then you have to know there is always the possibility that you can be called at 1am if there is a problem. That is called logic boys and girls. If there is going to be an issue with ITD flights, it is going to be late at night when the original crew runs out of time.
As for Sick on Assignment.....it is my belief that the company is just asking that if you are on reserve and you are unable to work during that duty period that you let them know. I am sure they could care less if you are sick on your OFF days.....but technically, when you are on duty.....you are available to work and are getting paid (if you call guarantee getting paid.)
Thank you for acknowledging the fraud, and yes it is rampant in all departments. Ground Serivces has had a very similar policy as it relates to their work environment for years (minus the pay penalty - which I have acknowledged is ridiculous). It is hard to believe someone is not lying if the minute you tell them you are assigning them a trip and suddenly they are sick. But hey, that could just be me.
As for morale.......you bet I believe it is bad......Dave doesn't help with the doom and gloom either....and I agree that there is a long road to travelt o make it better....and yes this won't help either....but it needs to be addressed. Should we wait until morale is better before addressing attendance issues?
PITbull
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- Dec 29, 2002
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MMW,
You won't have attendance issues if you fix the morale. It has never been this bad. You know it. Admit it.
Please cite some of these occurences. I have my "in" with crew scheduling as well. give me past 3 months, and I will investigate this assertion you cite. There are many reserves that also get called out on ITD at 1:00 for a 5 pm departure. Or at 10 am for a 5 pm departure same day. You have brought the ITD flight down to minimum FAA staffing levels. So, one sick call upsets the balance. Can't use the lodo to cover the 8th. When we had 11 and 12, a sick call or two on a trip did not constitute a possible cancellation of a flight.
When I refer to all dept fraud, didn't say it was rampant. Those are your words and your thinking. Most folks need money to live. You have to work to accomplish that. I was also, trying to draw your attention to management stealing of time. Example: 2 hour luch breaks. Leaving work early, coming to work late. I am talking middle and senior mangement type mostly. Does management have pay penalties for their sick occurences? Or does being salaried mean you get paid no matter what, sick or not. How many days does management types receive for sick? Can they use their vacation days "at will" for special emergencies?
You won't have attendance issues if you fix the morale. It has never been this bad. You know it. Admit it.
Please cite some of these occurences. I have my "in" with crew scheduling as well. give me past 3 months, and I will investigate this assertion you cite. There are many reserves that also get called out on ITD at 1:00 for a 5 pm departure. Or at 10 am for a 5 pm departure same day. You have brought the ITD flight down to minimum FAA staffing levels. So, one sick call upsets the balance. Can't use the lodo to cover the 8th. When we had 11 and 12, a sick call or two on a trip did not constitute a possible cancellation of a flight.
When I refer to all dept fraud, didn't say it was rampant. Those are your words and your thinking. Most folks need money to live. You have to work to accomplish that. I was also, trying to draw your attention to management stealing of time. Example: 2 hour luch breaks. Leaving work early, coming to work late. I am talking middle and senior mangement type mostly. Does management have pay penalties for their sick occurences? Or does being salaried mean you get paid no matter what, sick or not. How many days does management types receive for sick? Can they use their vacation days "at will" for special emergencies?
MarkMyWords
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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Can't really speak for management.....since I am not in their ranks.
Let me ask you this. Are management employess compensated for time worked over and above their 40 hours? That said, do management employees only work 40 hours a week? Are hourly employees vacations subject to cancellation at a moments notice due the crisis of the moment? If a management employee uses a sick day, is there a reserve manager to call out to get the work done, or is the work still there waiting for you when you get back to work? Mangement employees receive 10 sick days, just like any other employee group.
Not saying their are not abuses at all levels...
Let me ask you this. Are management employess compensated for time worked over and above their 40 hours? That said, do management employees only work 40 hours a week? Are hourly employees vacations subject to cancellation at a moments notice due the crisis of the moment? If a management employee uses a sick day, is there a reserve manager to call out to get the work done, or is the work still there waiting for you when you get back to work? Mangement employees receive 10 sick days, just like any other employee group.
Not saying their are not abuses at all levels...
PITbull
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- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
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Not to belabor the point, but are you saying there are no perks to being management? I have a sister who is VP of Travelocity. She would beg to differ with you on that if you said there was not in comparison to Rank and file.
Its now late. I can't stay up anymore.
Good night.
I know your management.
Its now late. I can't stay up anymore.
Good night.
I know your management.
MarkMyWords
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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I never said there are not perks in being a member of management......but there are also prices you pay for being in management.
have a good night.
have a good night.
- Banned
- #98
MWM, you make some pretty bold statements there!MarkMyWords said:
Sick is not rampant thru ground services as you say. In Maintenance you have 5 occurences, sick or late in a 12 month period you are put on a verbal, next occurance written, next occurance 2nd written, next occurance out the door, so if you have seven occurances in a 12 month rolling period you are out the door. So if sick is as rampant as you say, we would be hiring people instead of laying them off.
On a side note the IAM mechanic and related has a letter in our contract that states you cannot be disciplined for the legitimate use of sick time, you can be disciplined if you use your sick time to extend your weekend or develop a pattern.
Several years back the company unilaterally change our attendence policy in maintenance to wipe out that letter our AGC Tommy Regan grieved it and took it to arbitration, the Arbitor ruled that if you have a Dr's note and saw the Dr for what you called in sick for it will not count as an occurance. Now within the past few months the company is asking for your symptoms, diagnosis, treatment, when you saw the Dr, the dates you were unable to work and the date you can return.
Once again the company is violating the law, they are not entilted to any personal medical information, so once again we have to take this to arbitration.
So don't tell me the sick is ramapant thru the company, you work in a nice cush office not outside in the heat, cold, rain, ice or snow or midnight shift where is it is proven you get sick more.
firstamendment
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- Apr 1, 2003
- 1,348
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Of course Carol wants the fence to stay. She is senior enough to hold the 6 trip, option and hold Rome at CSD pay. Lets see, roughly 19 hours times 6 equals 115 hours. Who else, besides this group, can fly over 105 hours and not get a letter?THAT is why the fence should come down. This is grossly unfair when you consider that Shannon is only worth 13+30 a trip egualing 79 hours for 1 really junior person (20 years lol) to fly the 6 trip option. This is not about cost saving, it's about stopping the greed.etops1 said:
Pitbull, you seem to be pretty passive on this one. Why? You seem to care about our welfare...well. this IS a big deal. Does anyone understand how inappropriate this is. This fence should have NOTHING to do with whether or not it saves money, but that it creates an elitist group....and please, to those in that senority group, please don't lecture me about," thats life or you will one day get it too". I am not a child and 17 years with one company to the rest of the world is highyl unusual, so please no shaming about how I am being a junior baby. This issue continues to get ignored and it is just wrong...PERIOD!!
firstamendment
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- Apr 1, 2003
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Thank you for your clarification. I do believe you. It is essential that we lay people get the truth. I just don't get management. My only concern to you was that I know how passionate your are to causes and I have just felt that there hasn't been much fight in bringing the fence down. That's all.PITbull said:
PS. Knowing Carol, I didn't think that sounded like her, but I do know retirement is not that far for her and she deserves the right to take advantage of the system as it has been implemented.
