Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Walmartgreeter]

When the APA becomes the bargaining agent it will be the APA's right to submit the list for us airways pilots.

Great logic. That is the purpose of M/B….. One group can tell the other group what their list is? How would that have worked out for the TWA F/As?

You are so silly Clear, so silly. But I know you are just kidding.

Greeter

 

[Pi brat]

You have me confused with JS, I believe. I have been a dues paying member of USAPA since day one. I have voted on every issue and election and remain a member in good standing.

Good for you. I talked to John about joining and that he shouldn't complain if he was abdicating the running of the union to others. He just screwed up his mouth like was sucking on a lemon, like he did a lot when I spoke. ;-)

 

[Walmartgreeter]

You have me confused with JS, I believe. I have been a dues paying member of USAPA since day one. I have voted on every issue and election and remain a member in good standing.

Too late, and too stilted of a statment, why would you even say it that way? I simply know otherwise, but could really care less. Go in peace.

Greeter

 

[Pi brat]

Too late, and too stilted of a statment, why would you even say it that way? I simply know otherwise, but could really care less. Go in peace.

Greeter

He is NOT js.

 

[traderjake]

APA can "insist" on whatever they want, but it will only be concerning THEIR own list. The Company will insist nothing. Read the MOU, they are neutral.

If USAPA submits a single DOH list I bet the company will have a say in the matter.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

If USAPA submits a single DOH list I bet the company will have a say in the matter.

The Company is contractually neutral as per the MOU.

And how does submitting pilot data according to its facts make it a "single list?"

In the end, no West pilot can leap frog a West pilot, and no East pilot can leap frog an East pilot. Not rocket science.

Greeter

 

[traderjake]

Deleted.

 

[Zone5]

And?

Your comment was.



I asked a very simple question where does the MOU say two lists? You made the statement. I asked the question. You have not answered my question put simply quoted a paragraph that does not back up your statement.

The word "lists" is not a number. Why is it so hard to you guys to answer even simple questions? Does the MOU say two lists? Yes or no?

Look sparky, if you don't know the meaning and purpose or even the difference between the singular and plural tenses of a word in our language, I suggest you read up on English grammar before posting further.


seajay

 

[traderjake]

And how does submitting pilot data according to its facts make it a "single list?"

"Pilot data" is not a seniority list.

 

[Zone5]

The Nic could only ever be implemented with a ratified contract. Everyone knows that. Problem is, nobody will vote for a contract containing the nic (except for westies, of course). From what I remember, that is what they told the court, and that is what management believes also.
To get the nic, a joint contract between east and west and LCC must be consummated. Never happened, not going to happen, ever. That process FAILED. Ergo, the Nic has been dead for a long time, just nobody pulled the plug on the life support. AOL has been trying to shock it back to life repeatedly by throwing massive quantities of cash on the lifeless corpse, but to no avail. Nobody's buying the rotten piece of meat called the Nic.
BTW, the harm in the nic at this point is that there is no quid pro quo. Meaning, we're all supposed to get a new contract with LCC in return for integrating the pilot workforce. Sorry, but if the company wants an integrated pilot workforce, I need compensated for that. That also never happened, and now everyone realizes it never can happen.
The MOU pulls the plug on the Nic life support machine. The west voted for it as well as the east. The MAJORITY of the west approved the provisions of the MOU.
You guys don't have a case. The current T/A dies on the effective date. The MOU/MTA is not a contract between USAPA and LCC, it's a transition agreement between American Airlines and USAPA.
You can't claim injury (ripeness) until the SLI is complete or risk being sanctioned by the courts for filing a frivolous lawsuit.
The MOU lays out exactly how the seniority deal is going down, and it will be the east list, west list, and the AA list.
Negotiate, then arbitrate if necessary. By the time the new list comes out, you'll have several thousand extra dollars in your pocket, shiny new uniforms, and the distinction of being the employee of the largest airline in the world.
When you go crying to the judge at that point, he'll laugh you out of the courtroom.
And I don't think any judge will give you a TRO to stop a multi-billion dollar merger. Just ain't going to happen, Clear.
Cheers.

I don't see how the reality of the current situation could be stated any more clearly. Not that it will matter to the "give me the NIC or give me death" crowd!


seajay

 

[end_of_alpa]

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2013/02/american-airlines-us-airways-hearing-written-testimony-from-apa-apfa-leaders.html/

Home > Airline Biz Blog
APA president: We’re probably 24 to 30 months away from combining pilot seniority lists of American Airlines, US Airways
By Terry Maxon
tmaxon@dallasnews.com
5:32 pm on February 27, 2013 | Permalink
7
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Allied Pilots Association president Keith Wilson advised pilots Wednesday not to get too worked up yet about the issue of combining the seniority lists of US Airways and American Airlines after the proposed merger.

The reason: It’ll probably be a long time before the two sides get to that point.

“First off, take a deep breath, because the process of accomplishing the merger, achieving a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), and achieving an integrated seniority list will be a long one,” Wilson told them in a hotline message. “We are probably at least 24 to 30 months away from resolving the issue of a combined seniority list.”

APA represents American Airlines pilots. The US Airline Pilots Association represents US Airways pilots.

Keep reading for Wilson’s discussion of the process and the history of seniority list integrations.


Seniority integration

I know that many of you are concerned about both the near- and long-term impact of a merger on your seniority and future career prospects. You are right to take this issue seriously. Seniority is the lifeblood of our profession, and that number on your HI-1 dictates everything from compensation to quality of life.

Rest assured that this is not something that your APA leadership took lightly when pursuing a merger with US Airways. With that in mind, I would like to make clear to you that despite what you may have heard on the line or read on C&R, this transaction provides an opportunity to make our profession here at American much more secure than the independent plan previously espoused by the current AA management team.

First off, take a deep breath, because the process of accomplishing the merger, achieving a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), and achieving an integrated seniority list will be a long one. We are probably at least 24 to 30 months away from resolving the issue of a combined seniority list. Until that date, the memorandum of understanding (MOU) provides initial flying protections until fence provisions are established as part of the seniority list integration process. These MOU provisions include the following language:

– All existing AA aircraft, including orders and options, will be flown by current APA pilots.

– All existing US Airways aircraft, including orders and options, will be flown by — current USAPA pilots.

– US Airways pilots will fly the first thirty E-190 aircraft and starting with the 31st E-190 delivery, APA will receive two E-190 aircraft for every additional E-190 above thirty flown by US Airways pilots.

– BOS-LGA-DCA shuttle operations will be flown by current USAPA pilots, along with existing PHX-Hawaii flying.

– All trans-Pacific (Asia) flying will be performed by current APA pilots.

– Minimum block hour floors are established at both airlines to prevent the new company from drawing down either operation at the expense of the other.

– If either US Airways or American is hiring, furloughed pilots on either side may volunteer to fly for the other operation. Furlough protection will be provided to all pilots at both operations, who are senior to the most junior active pilot on the “effective date.”

Under the MOU, which will now become a merger transition agreement (MTA), we have built a foundation for a new JCBA. JCBA negotiations will begin after AMR’s plan of reorganization is approved and shortly after the corporation exits bankruptcy. The seniority integration process will begin at roughly the same time but, as outlined in the MOU/MTA, the seniority integration is intended to be finished after the JCBA is concluded, but no later than two years after exit from bankruptcy. Although we all would like to see a negotiated single seniority list rather than an arbitrated one, past pilot history has shown us that this is not very likely even in the best of circumstances. Because seniority is so important and so vigorously defended, in most cases it’s often simply a “bridge too far” to expect separate pilot groups to put aside their differing interests and accomplish an integrated list without a neutral arbitrator. In this case, it is unusually complicated when you consider the longstanding divisions and current litigation between “East” and “West” at US Airways, and the effect that this may have on the process. Accordingly, while the APA leadership looks forward to negotiations, we are planning on the assumption that the seniority lists may ultimately be integrated through arbitration under the McCaskill-Bond guidelines.

Many of you are concerned that, considering history, the outcome will be a “date-of-hire” seniority list that harms your career expectations. You can be sure that your leadership will determine the position that will best reflect the American Airlines pilots’ interests, and in that regard, a three-person arbitration panel should help to ensure a fair and balanced outcome. The APA Board of Directors has appointed a Seniority Integration Committee, supported by experienced counsel, and it is ready to carefully analyze the impact of the possible seniority integration methods in the specific circumstances of this case, including date-of-hire, length of service and ratio or other methods. Your APA Board of Directors will direct the Seniority Integration Committee to develop positions that best reflect our interests and career expectations.

Bear in mind that date-of-hire is not the only way to integrate seniority lists, and in recent years has not even been a common method. The last arbitrated date-of-hire integrated seniority list arose out of the 1986 Northwest/Republic merger. In that case, the arbitrator found that the date-of-hire list could be fair and equitable only with 20-year fences between the two pilot groups. The result was 20 years of arbitrated disputes over what the award meant and how it applied. It was, therefore, generally considered to have been an operational disaster. Since the Northwest/Republic arbitration, the paradigm has shifted in favor of integrated lists based on ratios reflecting the number of jobs and other equities “brought to the merger” by each group, with fences applied for as long as necessary to keep the operation fair until the integrated list can operate fairly by itself. Career expectations at each carrier along with fleet disposition and future delivery schedules are among the important factors in constructing such a list. While each merger and subsequent seniority integration is unique in its own way, the recent integrations at Delta/Northwest and soon-to-be United/Continental illustrate this decision-making methodology.

By now you should also understand that those things that make a merger with US Airways especially compelling from a business perspective (including strong, viable hubs and the near-complete lack of route overlap between the two route networks) also make this merger more attractive from a pilot’s perspective.

Again, we are at the beginning of a long process. While there will undoubtedly be some bumps in the road in the operational integration of the two airlines — and there will no doubt be disagreements between pilot groups and between pilots and management — those who are forecasting an “Armageddon” scenario are ignoring the success stories in recent merger history and/or have another agenda in mind. Under new management, the new American Airlines has the opportunity to change the broken culture that we have suffered under and compete on a level playing field with Delta and United. And that means a secure future for all pilots.

Agreed. We will NOT be limiting our argument to DOH in the arbitration. We made tat mistake with the West. We can be integrated with BETTER than DOH over the APA pilots. The gloves come off and APA pilots should go beneath US Airways pilots.

Looking forward to the arbitration.

 

[Zone5]

Agreed. We will NOT be limiting our argument to DOH in the arbitration. We made tat mistake with the West. We can be integrated with BETTER than DOH over the APA pilots. The gloves come off and APA pilots should go beneath US Airways pilots.

Looking forward to the arbitration.

This kind of "Flame Bait" is not helpful. The failure to achieve a negotiated SLI with the APA and the resulting abdication of our right as pilots to determine our own destiny would be yet another huge pilot mistake. We are not capable of controlling our own futures, really?


seajay

 

[end_of_alpa]

This kind of "Flame Bait" is not helpful. The failure to achieve a negotiated SLI with the APA and the resulting abdication of our right as pilots to determine our own destiny would be yet another huge pilot mistake. We are not capable of controlling our own futures, really?


seajay

Flame bait? I'm simply stating the obvious. APA doesn't value DOH and neither did the West pilots. Why should we therefore tie our own hands in negotiations? In fact, let me re-quote Wilson's main point.

Bear in mind that date-of-hire is not the only way to integrate seniority lists, and in recent years has not even been a common method. The last arbitrated date-of-hire integrated seniority list arose out of the 1986 Northwest/Republic merger. In that case, the arbitrator found that the date-of-hire list could be fair and equitable only with 20-year fences between the two pilot groups. The result was 20 years of arbitrated disputes over what the award meant and how it applied. It was, therefore, generally considered to have been an operational disaster. Since the Northwest/Republic arbitration, the paradigm has shifted in favor of integrated lists based on ratios reflecting the number of jobs and other equities “brought to the merger” by each group, with fences applied for as long as necessary to keep the operation fair until the integrated list can operate fairly by itself. Career expectations at each carrier along with fleet disposition and future delivery schedules are among the important factors in constructing such a list. While each merger and subsequent seniority integration is unique in its own way, the recent integrations at Delta/Northwest and soon-to-be United/Continental illustrate this decision-making methodology.

Why should we be reasonable if APA is already staking out their territory?

 

[end_of_alpa]

This kind of "Flame Bait" is not helpful. The failure to achieve a negotiated SLI with the APA and the resulting abdication of our right as pilots to determine our own destiny would be yet another huge pilot mistake. We are not capable of controlling our own futures, really?


seajay

In fact, lets just state the obvious based on Wilson's statement:

.....the paradigm has shifted in favor of integrated lists based on ratios reflecting the number of jobs and other equities “brought to the merger” by each group, with fences applied for as long as necessary to keep the operation fair until the integrated list can operate fairly by itself. Career expectations at each carrier along with fleet disposition and future delivery schedules are among the important factors in constructing such a list.

US Airways equities:

637 mil. 2012 profit
Superior management team (according to APA)
ACTUAL Airbus deliveries (not new orders made in BK like AMR)
Strong hubs in CLT and PHL
No REAL furloughs (west yes, but they could have come east)
High attrition due to retirements

AMR equities:

BANKRUPTCY!
Poor management
1,500 REAL furloughs
10 years of losses
Numerous market pullbacks

And that's the short list....in OUR FAVOR.

So who has the better argument in arbitration based on Wilson's statement?

Any AMR pilots want to chime in?

 

[Portly Dorman]

Agreed. We will NOT be limiting our argument to DOH in the arbitration. We made tat mistake with the West. We can be integrated with BETTER than DOH over the APA pilots. The gloves come off and APA pilots should go beneath US Airways pilots.

Looking forward to the arbitration.

Jamie-

Your arrogance is only exceeded by your ignorance.

I remember this same thing happening some 8 years ago. The shoe was on the foot and YOU worked for the BK company and had all the furloughs.

You and your ilk whined and complained poor me, poor us, ALPA, ALPA, ALPA.

You've delayed a pay raise for everyone for that 8 years. I hope the AFO'S are thanking the east captains for paying for their upgrades for the last 8 years, money that they could have used for used for retirement.

Let me start the whining now.....USAPA USAPA USAPA!!!

What a JA.