Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

Phoenix: Are you really an elected rep? You seem to be losing your cool.

Oh yea.....losing control......losing cool...losing control.....Marooon.

Umm....cactusboy53: "Hangman is comin' down from the gallows and you don't have very long..."...? A bit on the overly dramatic side, wouldn't you say?

Phoenix: "You seem to be losing your cool." cactusboy53....You really needn't make the man's case for him.

 

[cactusboy53]

cactusboy53: They said they "hoped that the new abitrators bent the former US Air pilots over a barrel (like they deserved). Further, they said the former US Airways pilots (let's say - DOH to the DEATH supporters) were the PARIAHS of the commercial aviation industry.




Good. That's good. Just a take a few deep, easy, long breaths and let it all out.....take in the good, breathe out the bad. Repeat as needed.

SYIC

 

[EastUS1]

SYIC

Such huge caps? Well...I'm glad to see all were wrong about you losing your cool here.

Have fun playing attempted games with your lawyers. Just the stench of attorneys and courtrooms turns my stomach, so I'll pass on SYIC. Thanks for the courteous invitation though.

I've but one minor point of confusion here. Since the "Hangman is comin' down from the gallows and you don't have very long..."...Well...Why aren't yourself and your entire flock so loudly rejoicing that it could be heard not only east of the Ole' Miss, but indeed; all the way to Mars or even Uranus?

 

[cleardirect]

Well, well, well. What does the APA have to say about seniority?

Many of you are concerned that, considering history, the outcome will be a “date-of-hire” seniority list that harms your career expectations. You can be sure that your leadership will determine the position that will best reflect the American Airlines pilots’ interests, and in that regard, a three-person arbitration panel should help to ensure a fair and balanced outcome. The APA Board of Directors has appointed a Seniority Integration Committee, supported by experienced counsel, and it is ready to carefully analyze the impact of the possible seniority integration methods in the specific circumstances of this case, including date-of-hire, length of service and ratio or other methods. Your APA Board of Directors will direct the Seniority Integration Committee to develop positions that best reflect our interests and career expectations.

Bear in mind that date-of-hire is not the only way to integrate seniority lists, and in recent years has not even been a common method. The last arbitrated date-of-hire integrated seniority list arose out of the 1986 Northwest/Republic merger. In that case, the arbitrator found that the date-of-hire list could be fair and equitable only with 20-year fences between the two pilot groups. The result was 20 years of arbitrated disputes over what the award meant and how it applied. It was, therefore, generally considered to have been an operational disaster. Since the Northwest/Republic arbitration, the paradigm has shifted in favor of integrated lists based on ratios reflecting the number of jobs and other equities “brought to the merger” by each group, with fences applied for as long as necessary to keep the operation fair until the integrated list can operate fairly by itself. Career expectations at each carrier along with fleet disposition and future delivery schedules are among the important factors in constructing such a list. While each merger and subsequent seniority integration is unique in its own way, the recent integrations at Delta/Northwest and soon-to-be United/Continental illustrate this decision-making methodology.


Keith Wilson president of the APA. So much for the APA agreeing to DOH.

Was it luv that made up stories about the APA pilots wanting DOH? It would seem not so much.

 

[Phoenix]

SYICWHENITSRIPE

 

[cleardirect]

For those of you convinced it will be a negotiated seniority list because the APA is afraid of arbitration. Just so much projection. That is your fear not the APA. More from the interview of Wilson.


The seniority integration process will begin at roughly the same time but, as outlined in the MOU/MTA, the seniority integration is intended to be finished after the JCBA is concluded, but no later than two years after exit from bankruptcy. Although we all would like to see a negotiated single seniority list rather than an arbitrated one, past pilot history has shown us that this is not very likely even in the best of circumstances. Because seniority is so important and so vigorously defended, in most cases it’s often simply a “bridge too far” to expect separate pilot groups to put aside their differing interests and accomplish an integrated list without a neutral arbitrator. In this case, it is unusually complicated when you consider the longstanding divisions and current litigation between “East” and “West” at US Airways, and the effect that this may have on the process. Accordingly, while the APA leadership looks forward to negotiations, we are planning on the assumption that the seniority lists may ultimately be integrated through arbitration under the McCaskill-Bond guidelines.


East and west and the effect it may have on the process. That does not sound like a president that thinks it is a done deal and the Nicolau is dead and not a factor.

The APA is planning on going to arbitration. One of you east guys was saying a list had already been agreed to. More wishful thinking I guess.

Better get read up on your arbitration proceedings. Sure don't want to do what you did last time. Remember, when the arbitrator tells you, you are not getting DOH come back with a different method. When the arbitrator asks for the Nicolau list don't play dumb and say what list.

 

[cleardirect]

BTW. Anybody watch the video of Parker at the APA?

Not a single uniform in the room. Well except for usapa and their special-ness.

Once again everyone looking at usapa thinking, what the hell?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

The West Furloughees are going to hit the arbitration at their position on the Nicolau award. So will you and every single other US Air pilot. USAPA doesn't have an LUP for ignoring the Nic. They know it. The Company knows it, the West damn well knows it, and the Court system knows it. Make it ripe for adjudication and find out...which your pilot group did by RATIFYING A CONTRACT. Only a fool would believe that the MOU simply erases the RLA, and USAPA's Duty to fairly represent the pilots...which they have never had any intention of doing.

The appeal to the 9th over the DJ is entirely irrelevant at this point. As per normal, USAPA is chasing the wrong bus. When the BK Judges gavel comes down approving the POR, the hammer is coming down on USAPA and the DOH dream. AOL will be going after a Restraining order within 48 hrs of the POR and there is absolutely nothing you, your fake union, the APA or the company can do to stop it. If it derails the merger for a period of time...who cares.

Key misstep is right HERE: "Make it ripe for adjudication and find out...which your pilot group did by RATIFYING A CONTRACT. Only a fool would believe that the MOU simply erases the RLA, and USAPA's Duty to fairly represent the pilots...which they have never had any intention of doing."

That is where Harper just sold you guys out, for another 6 months of legal donations. No dig there on him, that is what he does.

The RLA is alive and well, and under no threat of erasure from the MOU.

Judge Conrad made it clear in his injunction that the only way for it to be lifted was a "CONTRACT" under Section VI. He even defined what that was. What we are doing now IS NOT a Section VI negotiation. It IS a process that next leads to a POR, an MTA, Single Carrier Status, and then (wait for it...any second..) a JCBA!!! And somewhere in all that there will be a merger of Unions (hopefully negotiated.)

We all reap the benefits of this PROCESS when the POR is finalized. But we continue to work under our individual contracts until there is a JCBA. You will continue to use your PBS vendor, and get paid extra for layovers longer than 24:15. We will continue to block bid and get less vacation. The APA guys and gals will work under their new Green Book. WE DO NOT HAVE A JOINT CONTRACT.

You blew it. Marty blew it. No Judge in the land is going to give you an injunction to KEEP you from getting a pay raise, keep you from working for the largest airline in the world, put the merger on hold and 100K employees in limbo, and somehow agree that the M/B process is not fair even though you voted for it.

Greeter

 

[Walmartgreeter]

BTW. Anybody watch the video of Parker at the APA?

Not a single uniform in the room. Well except for usapa and their special-ness.

Once again everyone looking at usapa thinking, what the hell?

Point taken, but when we marched on ALPA in 07' were were disgusted at the slobs we found living high on the hog on our dues, they did not bother to even put on the uniform to greet us. They were not even "business casual." We associated getting FPL with flying the line. Maybe misguided now, but it was important and proper then.

I thinks the APA has it right, something not considered by early USAPA. Having uniforms makes a distinction as to who is a C/O and F/O. They are elected equals. No problemo! Gooodbye uniforms.

That all you got?

Greeter

 

[Pi brat]

Keith Wilson president of the APA. So much for the APA agreeing to DOH.

Was it luv that made up stories about the APA pilots wanting DOH? It would seem not so much.

Wait a minute! Wait a minute! You are not taking Wilson's word, are you? I mean, he is speaking against the arbitrated decision in the RW/NW case and we know how much you guys respect that process. Or was the arbitrator not respected like Nicolau? Do you think the NW guys were punished by the close knit family of arbitrators because they challenged their SLI? What a joke you continue to be.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Wait a minute! Wait a minute! You are not taking Wilson's word, are you? I mean, he is speaking against the arbitrated decision in the RW/NW case and we know how much you guys respect that process. Or was the arbitrator not respected like Nicolau? Do you think the NW guys were punished by the close knit family of arbitrators because they challenged their SLI? What a joke you continue to be.

Keith "gets" the situation on our side. Don't look for any favors from him either way (East or West.) APA wants this to go away, just as Parker does. Like I said yesterday, when the West "problem" get enough traction, perceived or real, it will be dealt with. The solution will be fair and balanced, and based on process (there is that nasty word, again!).

I am sure Wilson is more than capable of using our divided group to the betterment of his own pilots. I would expect nothing less of a good leader. But like Parker, Kirby, and even Hummel..the ultimate goal is the creation of the world’s largest airline, with benefits for all pilots.

Have you ever seen the original hand drawn short film called “Bambi vs. Godzilla?” Leonidas is the new Bambi in this merger.

Greeter

 

[traderjake]

The seniority integration process will begin at roughly the same time but, as outlined in the MOU/MTA, the seniority integration is intended to be finished after the JCBA is concluded, but no later than two years after exit from bankruptcy. Although we all would like to see a negotiated single seniority list rather than an arbitrated one, past pilot history has shown us that this is not very likely even in the best of circumstances. Because seniority is so important and so vigorously defended, in most cases it’s often simply a “bridge too far” to expect separate pilot groups to put aside their differing interests and accomplish an integrated list without a neutral arbitrator. In this case, it is unusually complicated when you consider the longstanding divisions and current litigation between “East” and “West” at US Airways, and the effect that this may have on the process. Accordingly, while the APA leadership looks forward to negotiations, we are planning on the assumption that the seniority lists may ultimately be integrated through arbitration under the McCaskill-Bond guidelines.

Nice post, do you have a link or source?

 

[Portly Dorman]

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2013/02/american-airlines-us-airways-hearing-written-testimony-from-apa-apfa-leaders.html/

Home > Airline Biz Blog
APA president: We’re probably 24 to 30 months away from combining pilot seniority lists of American Airlines, US Airways
By Terry Maxon
tmaxon@dallasnews.com
5:32 pm on February 27, 2013 | Permalink
7
19

0
Allied Pilots Association president Keith Wilson advised pilots Wednesday not to get too worked up yet about the issue of combining the seniority lists of US Airways and American Airlines after the proposed merger.

The reason: It’ll probably be a long time before the two sides get to that point.

“First off, take a deep breath, because the process of accomplishing the merger, achieving a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), and achieving an integrated seniority list will be a long one,” Wilson told them in a hotline message. “We are probably at least 24 to 30 months away from resolving the issue of a combined seniority list.”

APA represents American Airlines pilots. The US Airline Pilots Association represents US Airways pilots.

Keep reading for Wilson’s discussion of the process and the history of seniority list integrations.


Seniority integration

I know that many of you are concerned about both the near- and long-term impact of a merger on your seniority and future career prospects. You are right to take this issue seriously. Seniority is the lifeblood of our profession, and that number on your HI-1 dictates everything from compensation to quality of life.

Rest assured that this is not something that your APA leadership took lightly when pursuing a merger with US Airways. With that in mind, I would like to make clear to you that despite what you may have heard on the line or read on C&R, this transaction provides an opportunity to make our profession here at American much more secure than the independent plan previously espoused by the current AA management team.

First off, take a deep breath, because the process of accomplishing the merger, achieving a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), and achieving an integrated seniority list will be a long one. We are probably at least 24 to 30 months away from resolving the issue of a combined seniority list. Until that date, the memorandum of understanding (MOU) provides initial flying protections until fence provisions are established as part of the seniority list integration process. These MOU provisions include the following language:

– All existing AA aircraft, including orders and options, will be flown by current APA pilots.

– All existing US Airways aircraft, including orders and options, will be flown by — current USAPA pilots.

– US Airways pilots will fly the first thirty E-190 aircraft and starting with the 31st E-190 delivery, APA will receive two E-190 aircraft for every additional E-190 above thirty flown by US Airways pilots.

– BOS-LGA-DCA shuttle operations will be flown by current USAPA pilots, along with existing PHX-Hawaii flying.

– All trans-Pacific (Asia) flying will be performed by current APA pilots.

– Minimum block hour floors are established at both airlines to prevent the new company from drawing down either operation at the expense of the other.

– If either US Airways or American is hiring, furloughed pilots on either side may volunteer to fly for the other operation. Furlough protection will be provided to all pilots at both operations, who are senior to the most junior active pilot on the “effective date.”

Under the MOU, which will now become a merger transition agreement (MTA), we have built a foundation for a new JCBA. JCBA negotiations will begin after AMR’s plan of reorganization is approved and shortly after the corporation exits bankruptcy. The seniority integration process will begin at roughly the same time but, as outlined in the MOU/MTA, the seniority integration is intended to be finished after the JCBA is concluded, but no later than two years after exit from bankruptcy. Although we all would like to see a negotiated single seniority list rather than an arbitrated one, past pilot history has shown us that this is not very likely even in the best of circumstances. Because seniority is so important and so vigorously defended, in most cases it’s often simply a “bridge too far” to expect separate pilot groups to put aside their differing interests and accomplish an integrated list without a neutral arbitrator. In this case, it is unusually complicated when you consider the longstanding divisions and current litigation between “East” and “West” at US Airways, and the effect that this may have on the process. Accordingly, while the APA leadership looks forward to negotiations, we are planning on the assumption that the seniority lists may ultimately be integrated through arbitration under the McCaskill-Bond guidelines.

Many of you are concerned that, considering history, the outcome will be a “date-of-hire” seniority list that harms your career expectations. You can be sure that your leadership will determine the position that will best reflect the American Airlines pilots’ interests, and in that regard, a three-person arbitration panel should help to ensure a fair and balanced outcome. The APA Board of Directors has appointed a Seniority Integration Committee, supported by experienced counsel, and it is ready to carefully analyze the impact of the possible seniority integration methods in the specific circumstances of this case, including date-of-hire, length of service and ratio or other methods. Your APA Board of Directors will direct the Seniority Integration Committee to develop positions that best reflect our interests and career expectations.

Bear in mind that date-of-hire is not the only way to integrate seniority lists, and in recent years has not even been a common method. The last arbitrated date-of-hire integrated seniority list arose out of the 1986 Northwest/Republic merger. In that case, the arbitrator found that the date-of-hire list could be fair and equitable only with 20-year fences between the two pilot groups. The result was 20 years of arbitrated disputes over what the award meant and how it applied. It was, therefore, generally considered to have been an operational disaster. Since the Northwest/Republic arbitration, the paradigm has shifted in favor of integrated lists based on ratios reflecting the number of jobs and other equities “brought to the merger” by each group, with fences applied for as long as necessary to keep the operation fair until the integrated list can operate fairly by itself. Career expectations at each carrier along with fleet disposition and future delivery schedules are among the important factors in constructing such a list. While each merger and subsequent seniority integration is unique in its own way, the recent integrations at Delta/Northwest and soon-to-be United/Continental illustrate this decision-making methodology.

By now you should also understand that those things that make a merger with US Airways especially compelling from a business perspective (including strong, viable hubs and the near-complete lack of route overlap between the two route networks) also make this merger more attractive from a pilot’s perspective.

Again, we are at the beginning of a long process. While there will undoubtedly be some bumps in the road in the operational integration of the two airlines — and there will no doubt be disagreements between pilot groups and between pilots and management — those who are forecasting an “Armageddon” scenario are ignoring the success stories in recent merger history and/or have another agenda in mind. Under new management, the new American Airlines has the opportunity to change the broken culture that we have suffered under and compete on a level playing field with Delta and United. And that means a secure future for all pilots.

 

[traderjake]

thanks

 

[Pi brat]

Under the MOU, which will now become a merger transition agreement (MTA), we have built a foundation for a new JCBA. JCBA negotiations will begin after AMR’s plan of reorganization is approved and shortly after the corporation exits bankruptcy.

How come you didn't highlight this clear?