Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Considering that the MOU, on the effective date, kills all previous agreements and puts LCC pilots on the MTA/Green Book, I'd say that the 'third' list can never materialize due to the fact that an integrated seniority list was never implemented at LCC.
Should have voted no, guys.
Cheers.

Is that the legal position you want to take? That the MOU kills all previous agreements including grievances?

The conclusion, therefore, is that the “third list” was intended to serve a more narrow, albeit profoundly important, purpose, of protecting pre-merger pilots by ensuring new hires would be places below all other pilots at the time the integrated seniority list is implemented.

Does that statement have any conditional statements like unless the company merges or it can only be an east west list? It says at the time the integrated seniority list is implemented.

I think the usapa grievance committee may take issue with you throwing away some hard fought former grievances.

Also ignoring or believing the concept that the third listers are not really third listers anymore. Puts the entire concept of usapa and DOH is the "gold standard" of seniority integration when they would not even ensure that pre merger pilots are senior to new hires using DOH at risk.

Damn that would make usapa a bunch of hypocrites and would sure to be pointed out during arbitration that usapa does not stand for ...anything except advancing east pilot over everyone. That DOH is only the "gold standard" when it benefits the east.

Where was usapa and the east pilot outrage when west pilots came to the east not by DOH by junior to new hires?

 

[PullUp]

Is that the legal position you want to take? That the MOU kills all previous agreements including grievances?

Does that statement have any conditional statements like unless the company merges or it can only be an east west list? It says at the time the integrated seniority list is implemented.

I think the usapa grievance committee may take issue with you throwing away some hard fought former grievances.

Also ignoring or believing the concept that the third listers are not really third listers anymore. Puts the entire concept of usapa and DOH is the "gold standard" of seniority integration when they would not even ensure that pre merger pilots are senior to new hires using DOH at risk.

Damn that would make usapa a bunch of hypocrites and would sure to be pointed out during arbitration that usapa does not stand for ...anything except advancing east pilot over everyone. That DOH is only the "gold standard" when it benefits the east.

Where was usapa and the east pilot outrage when west pilots came to the east not by DOH by junior to new hires?

I have no legal standing, so I can't 'take' a legal position. Just callin' them like I see them.
The MOU does in fact kill all previous agreements, pending grievances, past grievance decisions, the whole shebang - on the effective date. (That darn reading thing again, Clear)
If the grievance committee has issues, they need to take them up with the NAC.
Get this straight: There will be NO integrated seniority list at LCC. Never.
What you have now is what you'll have going into this AA merger.
Anything that is tied to the implementation of an integrated seniority list vis a vis the 'old' T/A, will be moot.
Will USAPA put new hires above pre-merger guys? I hope not, and I don't think any new hire would expect it.
Would you have any contractural standing to contest such an action? No.
Will this go to arbitration? You seem to think so, but I do not.
BTW, the seniority structure when west comes east and vice versa was defined in the TA, I believe.
PS - if you are furloughed out west, best try to get back before the 'effective date'.
Good luck.

 

[nic4us]

Speaking with memebers of the APA yesterday at the Federal Courthouse in DC, asked them about the NIC, there reply it was will not be happening, sorry.

Really?

You should spend more time talking to usapa reps and asking them questions. Like how did the company and the APA agree to terms of the MOU for east pilots after the vote?

Maybe I can get Pibrat or Piedmont to ask the questions and fill you in.

Word is it is the Nic, West has a seat at the table (itself proof of uscaba's DFR) , and MOU pay protection does not apply to east pilots.

Say goodbye to the 330s, and look for a whole bunch of RJs to come your way!

 

[PullUp]

Really?

You should spend more time talking to usapa reps and asking them questions. Like how did the company and the APA agree to terms of the MOU for east pilots after the vote?

Maybe I can get Pibrat or Piedmont to ask the questions and fill you in.

Word is it is the Nic, West has a seat at the table (itself proof of uscaba's DFR) , and MOU pay protection does not apply to east pilots.

Say goodbye to the 330s, and look for a whole bunch of RJs to come your way!

Off the wall statements like these require backup documentation.
You got any?

 

[3dtv]

Really?

You should spend more time talking to usapa reps and asking them questions. Like how did the company and the APA agree to terms of the MOU for east pilots after the vote?

Maybe I can get Pibrat or Piedmont to ask the questions and fill you in.

Word is it is the Nic, West has a seat at the table (itself proof of uscaba's DFR) , and MOU pay protection does not apply to east pilots.

Say goodbye to the 330s, and look for a whole bunch of RJs to come your way!

No NIC. No seat other than APA and USAPA. Deliveries to each side until list completion. No loss of 330s, no crush of 190s. You should listen and stop making it up.

 

[cleardirect]

I have no legal standing, so I can't 'take' a legal position. Just callin' them like I see them.
The MOU does in fact kill all previous agreements, pending grievances, past grievance decisions, the whole shebang - on the effective date. (That darn reading thing again, Clear)
If the grievance committee has issues, they need to take them up with the NAC.
Get this straight: There will be NO integrated seniority list at LCC. Never.
What you have now is what you'll have going into this AA merger.
Anything that is tied to the implementation of an integrated seniority list vis a vis the 'old' T/A, will be moot.
Will USAPA put new hires above pre-merger guys? I hope not, and I don't think any new hire would expect it.
Would you have any contractural standing to contest such an action? No.
Will this go to arbitration? You seem to think so, but I do not.
BTW, the seniority structure when west comes east and vice versa was defined in the TA, I believe.
PS - if you are furloughed out west, best try to get back before the 'effective date'.
Good luck.

Wow if it were only that easy. If a simple 15 page document could undo years of past practice. Why didn't usapa think of this years ago. Just make a deal with the company to disregard grievances and arbitrations.

But we have an integrated seniority list at LCC. It is called the Nicolau maybe you have heard of it. It just has not been implemented, it has not disappeared.

But let me ask a question. usapa using 2-3-4 lists is a redo. We all know that is what the east pilots want. How is the west treated fairly in that deal? What does the west get out of a redo and how is equal to the Nicolau or not do the harm the west fears (ninth circuit)?

Will USAPA put new hires above pre-merger guys? I hope not, and I don't think any new hire would expect it.

This is an interesting comment. You don't think a new hire would "expect" that. Well I did not think that a furloughed pilots would expect to be senior to a west captain but that is what they wanted. I would not expect my union to sue it's members but that is what happened. The new hires have been on the east long enough to have gained the east attitude and you east pilots have been throwing in our face that the new hires are moving up and that they were never going to vote for a joint contract because that would put a bunch of west pilots ahead of them. Unless someone was just running their mouth they could very well "expect" to be senior to west pilots.

 

[PullUp]

Wow if it were only that easy. If a simple 15 page document could undo years of past practice. Why didn't usapa think of this years ago. Just make a deal with the company to disregard grievances and arbitrations.

> That's what it says, dude. I didn't make this stuff up...on the effective date, you'll have a new agreement and ALL the old stuff goes away...

But we have an integrated seniority list at LCC. It is called the Nicolau maybe you have heard of it. It just has not been implemented, it has not disappeared.

> And it never will be implemented. The conditions to implement the Nic will never be met. It will disappear on the effective date as it lives within the current T/A, which will be replaced with the MTA.

But let me ask a question. usapa using 2-3-4 lists is a redo. We all know that is what the east pilots want. How is the west treated fairly in that deal? What does the west get out of a redo and how is equal to the Nicolau or not do the harm the west fears (ninth circuit)?

> First, it's not a 'redo'. It's a new integration that everyone agrees will be utilizing two lists (east/west) going in. You're going to keep your job, get a raise, and become an employee of American Airlines. I don't see any harm coming your way.


This is an interesting comment. You don't think a new hire would "expect" that. Well I did not think that a furloughed pilots would expect to be senior to a west captain but that is what they wanted. I would not expect my union to sue it's members but that is what happened. The new hires have been on the east long enough to have gained the east attitude and you east pilots have been throwing in our face that the new hires are moving up and that they were never going to vote for a joint contract because that would put a bunch of west pilots ahead of them. Unless someone was just running their mouth they could very well "expect" to be senior to west pilots.

>the new hires on the east expect to be positioned below pre-merger pilots as much as west pilots expect to be positioned senior to those east pilots hired before them.

Good luck.

 

[cleardirect]

Wow if it were only that easy. If a simple 15 page document could undo years of past practice. Why didn't usapa think of this years ago. Just make a deal with the company to disregard grievances and arbitrations.

> That's what it says, dude. I didn't make this stuff up...on the effective date, you'll have a new agreement and ALL the old stuff goes away...

But we have an integrated seniority list at LCC. It is called the Nicolau maybe you have heard of it. It just has not been implemented, it has not disappeared.

> And it never will be implemented. The conditions to implement the Nic will never be met. It will disappear on the effective date as it lives within the current T/A, which will be replaced with the MTA.

But let me ask a question. usapa using 2-3-4 lists is a redo. We all know that is what the east pilots want. How is the west treated fairly in that deal? What does the west get out of a redo and how is equal to the Nicolau or not do the harm the west fears (ninth circuit)?

> First, it's not a 'redo'. It's a new integration that everyone agrees will be utilizing two lists (east/west) going in. You're going to keep your job, get a raise, and become an employee of American Airlines. I don't see any harm coming your way.


This is an interesting comment. You don't think a new hire would "expect" that. Well I did not think that a furloughed pilots would expect to be senior to a west captain but that is what they wanted. I would not expect my union to sue it's members but that is what happened. The new hires have been on the east long enough to have gained the east attitude and you east pilots have been throwing in our face that the new hires are moving up and that they were never going to vote for a joint contract because that would put a bunch of west pilots ahead of them. Unless someone was just running their mouth they could very well "expect" to be senior to west pilots.

>the new hires on the east expect to be positioned below pre-merger pilots as much as west pilots expect to be positioned senior to those east pilots hired before them.

Good luck.

If that is what your union is telling you that everything goes away. Good luck with that.

So the union that told anyone that would listen that that Nicolau has been killed I can't remember how many times. That it was an ALPA product and usapa could ignore it. But now you are saying that the Nicolau was real and valid and it lived in the T/A. But now that the T/A is going away now for reals because we were kidding last time the Nicolau goes away.

So you have admitted that the Nicolau was real and valid because of the T/A but have managed to avoid it with the MOU. I would say that is a very strong case of intentional harm by the union admitting that for the last 8 years the east pilots have intentionally lied to the court, to the company and to their members about their obligations to the pilot. that usapa delay getting a contract knowing damn well that it would have implemented the Nicolau and that there was no legal way to avoid the nicolau because it existed in the T/A.

If there is no integration of the list from 8 years ago and you want to use the conditions as they exist today. That is a redo. No debate about it. You got to keep your job and work for a bigger airline last time, the Nicolau should have been good enough for you, That is what you just told me right. Where is the harm for you using the Nicolau?

 

[nevergiveup]

If that is what your union is telling you that everything goes away. Good luck with that.

So the union that told anyone that would listen that that Nicolau has been killed I can't remember how many times. That it was an ALPA product and usapa could ignore it. But now you are saying that the Nicolau was real and valid and it lived in the T/A. But now that the T/A is going away now for reals because we were kidding last time the Nicolau goes away.

So you have admitted that the Nicolau was real and valid because of the T/A but have managed to avoid it with the MOU. I would say that is a very strong case of intentional harm by the union admitting that for the last 8 years the east pilots have intentionally lied to the court, to the company and to their members about their obligations to the pilot. that usapa delay getting a contract knowing damn well that it would have implemented the Nicolau and that there was no legal way to avoid the nicolau because it existed in the T/A.

If there is no integration of the list from 8 years ago and you want to use the conditions as they exist today. That is a redo. No debate about it. You got to keep your job and work for a bigger airline last time, the Nicolau should have been good enough for you, That is what you just told me right. Where is the harm for you using the Nicolau?

Are you a furloughed west pilot?

 

[Portly Dorman]

The fake union won't even recognize its DOH promise, the 2004/5 west furloughs don't even get their DOH position on the east list. According to east math they have 8 years of seniority.

What is it boys, DOH only when it suits you?

 

[Res Judicata]

The fake union won't even recognize its DOH promise, the 2004/5 west furloughs don't even get their DOH position on the east list. According to east math they have 8 years of seniority.

What is it boys, DOH only when it suits you?

Rhetorical question. Scabs only have situational ethics.

 

[nevergiveup]

Rhetorical question. Scabs only have situational ethics.

moooooooooooooooooooooove!

 

[nycbusdriver]

Where does the MOU say two lists?

The MOU does not put a number on it.

Of course they wouldn't put a number on it. If they did, you worsties wouldn't take the bait and send in a 98% vote for in favor.

If you are correct usapa can't propose a single DOH list can they?

Why make the assumption that it is not more than 3? Remember the term "third list"?

If usapa presents just 2 lists how do they ensure that the west pilots are senior to the new hires if they are put on the east list? DOH is not a requirement or assured. What if the arbitrator says he will match the bottom pilot from three list? How did usapa represent thos west pilots fairly?

There was a third list only because people were hired after the snapshot was taken and weren't considered by the arbitrator. Remember, by the time Nicolau came up with his abomination, there were no longer furloughees on the east.

Since then, that third list is simply present at the bottom of the east list, as they are all working.

Should USAPA treat the west furloughees like the west presented the east furloughees to Nicolau? That is, bringing nothing to the table and therefore should be stapled? Is that what you are asking? Or, would the west furloughees prefer to hit the arbitration table with their DOH?

 

[Metroyet]

Of course they wouldn't put a number on it. If they did, you worsties wouldn't take the bait and send in a 98% vote for in favor.



There was a third list only because people were hired after the snapshot was taken and weren't considered by the arbitrator. Remember, by the time Nicolau came up with his abomination, there were no longer furloughees on the east.

Since then, that third list is simply present at the bottom of the east list, as they are all working.

Should USAPA treat the west furloughees like the west presented the east furloughees to Nicolau? That is, bringing nothing to the table and therefore should be stapled? Is that what you are asking? Or, would the west furloughees prefer to hit the arbitration table with their DOH?

The West Furloughees are going to hit the arbitration at their position on the Nicolau award. So will you and every single other US Air pilot. USAPA doesn't have an LUP for ignoring the Nic. They know it. The Company knows it, the West damn well knows it, and the Court system knows it. Make it ripe for adjudication and find out...which your pilot group did by RATIFYING A CONTRACT. Only a fool would believe that the MOU simply erases the RLA, and USAPA's Duty to fairly represent the pilots...which they have never had any intention of doing.

The appeal to the 9th over the DJ is entirely irrelevant at this point. As per normal, USAPA is chasing the wrong bus. When the BK Judges gavel comes down approving the POR, the hammer is coming down on USAPA and the DOH dream. AOL will be going after a Restraining order within 48 hrs of the POR and there is absolutely nothing you, your fake union, the APA or the company can do to stop it. If it derails the merger for a period of time...who cares.

 

[mrbreeze]

If? Why? If, how? if, What if, How?

Easy there, Sheldon, you're going to have an aneurysm!

All this speculation in 7 sentences!
breeze