Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nevergiveup]

Where does the MOU say two lists?

The MOU does not put a number on it.

He said two lists from LCC and one from APA = 3. (2 currently in effect at LCC and 1 at APA....but this has already been covered.)

 

[cleardirect]

My Mother had a great method of teaching "sharing" to my Brother and I, a single "piece of cake" was split by one, while the other got to choose the first piece. Maybe that would work here. I know the "splitter" was very particular about evening up the cut and my "Sister" was never given the job of unilaterally dividing and distributing the results as she saw fit, which is why we never ended up with any "food fights" like we have here.


seajay

Could it be that you are finally begining to see the light?

That the bigger brother can't agree to the principle of one splits the other decides. Then go back on your word and just take both pieces leaving the other brother with nothing.

If only 7 years ago the entire east pilot group would have understood that concept.

 

[cleardirect]

The process is in place. We all know what happened last time in arbitration. The only difference this time is it will be a federal arbitration.
Not an internal policy/procedure. So, arbitration this time IS very binding, with the federal government backing it up and defending it.
Who in there right mind would skip the opportunity to negotiate this thing to avoid the unknown quantity that will be federal arb?
I vote for negotiating a deal.
Cheers.

How did negotiating work out last time?

Are you saying that because the full weight and threat of the federal government was not on you last time you failed to negotiate in good faith?

What makes you think that APA is going to fold under DOH for you this time?

If usapa is boxed into DOH by the C&BL how is usapa going to negotiate when APA says no? Will usapa just stare at the APA and say DOH. DOH. DOH.

If, on the date ninety (90) days following the Effective Date, direct
negotiations have failed to result in a merged seniority list acceptable to the pilots at both airlines, a
panel of three neutral arbitrators will be designated within fifteen (15) days to resolve the dispute,
pursuant to the authority and requirements of McCaskill-Bond.

usapa can't drag this out for very long.

 

[cleardirect]

h. US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for
changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in
this Paragraph 10.

It does not put a number on it. That is my point. He said the MOU said two lists. That you for proving my point. The MOU does not say two lists.

 

[nevergiveup]

Could it be that you are finally begining to see the light?

That the bigger brother can't agree to the principle of one splits the other decides. Then go back on your word and just take both pieces leaving the other brother with nothing.

If only 7 years ago the entire east pilot group would have understood that concept.

I agree with treating each of us the same. X credit for relative position. Y credit for years of service. Z credit for DOH. Apply the X,Y,Z value to each pilot. I believe career expectations are best done with fences.

 

[cleardirect]

I agree with treating each of us the same. X credit for relative position. Y credit for years of service. Z credit for DOH. Apply the X,Y,Z value to each pilot. I believe career expectations are best done with fences.

Ask the Republic guys how fences worked out for them.

Talk to someone in management and ask how expensive fences will be.

Nice math. You want double credit. LOS plus DOH. So you just want to ignore status or seat?

You forgot the other go to arguments. Attrition and age.

Talk about single minded with the inability to look at any other factor. DOH, DOH, DOH, DOH, DOH, DOH

 

[Piedmont1984]

It does not put a number on it. That is my point. He said the MOU said two lists. That you for proving my point. The MOU does not say two lists.

Okay, well then we can at least agree that the MOU definitely excludes a number as well and that number is one. Using a little more in the way of deductive reasoning, we can assume that the word lists does not refer to more than two LCC lists, as in three or four. When you finally work your way through it all, there aren't many reasonable options left - so I'm going with two.

 

[Zone5]

Where does the MOU say two lists?

The MOU does not put a number on it.

Section 10. para h. to wit:

US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for
changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in this Paragraph 10.

I've added the color enhancement, apparently you have "glossed over" the use of the plural in US Airways seniority lists currently in effect.


seajay

 

[snapthis]

I agree with treating each of us the same. X credit for relative position. Y credit for years of service. Z credit for DOH. Apply the X,Y,Z value to each pilot. I believe career expectations are best done with fences.

Career expectations were considered by the first arbitration and should be a consideration now.

Excerpt from the Nicolau decision:

The Background
As in many other mergers, the airlines differ in size, with US
Airways substantially larger than America West. The former, a product
of previous mergers over the course of a number of years, is also much
older, which consequently reflects a wide disparity in pilot dates of hire
as between the two airlines. Additionally, US Airways has a substantial
4
international presence in which planes not in America West's fleet are
flown. However, in most categories, America West's pay scales are
higher. Beyond this, at the time of the merger announcement, US
Airways had a significant number of pilots on furlough while America
West had none. Moreover, the financial future of US Airways was not
comparable to or as bright as that of America West.
These factors, as could be predicted, led to great differences In
the Parties' concepts of a fair and equitable merger. In basic outline,
US Airways argued for a Date of Hire list, adjusted for Length of
Service, subject to certain seven-year conditions and restrictions, a
model that placed the most senior America West pilot far down the
seniority list and merged a number of furloughed US Airways pilots
above active pilots at America West.

 

[PullUp]

It does not put a number on it. That is my point. He said the MOU said two lists. That you for proving my point. The MOU does not say two lists.

Speekee Engleesh??
'lists'=plural
plural=more than one
duh

 

[luvthe9]

Speaking with memebers of the APA yesterday at the Federal Courthouse in DC, asked them about the NIC, there reply it was will not be happening, sorry.

 

[nevergiveup]

Ask the Republic guys how fences worked out for them.

Talk to someone in management and ask how expensive fences will be.

Nice math. You want double credit. LOS plus DOH. So you just want to ignore status or seat?

You forgot the other go to arguments. Attrition and age.

Talk about single minded with the inability to look at any other factor. DOH, DOH, DOH, DOH, DOH, DOH

I did not say that at all. Please read more carefully in the future.

 

[cleardirect]

Section 10. para h. to wit:

US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for
changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in this Paragraph 10.

I've added the color enhancement, apparently you have "glossed over" the use of the plural in US Airways seniority lists currently in effect.


seajay

And?

Your comment was.

It might be "a merger of two companies, not three" if you're talking "operating" certificates, but the "rumors" about a merger of the AWA and AAA pilots via a JCBA and a "merged" SLI are way overblown! I've heard a lot about that may be happening some day, but as of the May 2013 permanent bid, I don't see any indication that it ever has or even will at this point, what with the recently "ratified" MOU with AMR. According to this recent MOU, there will be two "lists" from LCC and one list from AMR being integrated.


seajay

I asked a very simple question where does the MOU say two lists? You made the statement. I asked the question. You have not answered my question put simply quoted a paragraph that does not back up your statement.

The word "lists" is not a number. Why is it so hard to you guys to answer even simple questions? Does the MOU say two lists? Yes or no?

 

[PullUp]

Quoted from Cleardirect:
How did negotiating work out last time?
Negotiating is always a question mark. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Are you saying that because the full weight and threat of the federal government was not on you last time you failed to negotiate in good faith?
No, I'm saying that these conditions raise the stakes. It was also assumed that an arbitrator would render a list that conformed to the union merger policy. In the east, the majority judged that not to be the case.
What makes you think that APA is going to fold under DOH for you this time?
I'm not supposing anything. I'm saying a negotiated solution which is a known quantity is better than letting your collective fate be determined by an arbitrator, because of past history doing so.
If usapa is boxed into DOH by the C&BL how is usapa going to negotiate when APA says no? Will usapa just stare at the APA and say DOH. DOH. DOH.
Since I'm not in the union hierarchy, I don't know what the strategy will be. But I want them to know that this MIG's wishes are to remain out of arbitration if at all possible.
usapa can't drag this out for very long.
Exactly - and neither can AA. I think it is in the best interests of all parties to negotiate a deal quickly. In fact, I would imagine it's already happening or already finished.
Cheers.

 

[Pi brat]

I asked a question how the math worked.

So since you admitted to bringing massive under staffing to the merger and you only want what you brought. You should go to Parker and tell him to furlough about 800 pilots to get you back to what you brought.

That is what you and your east pilots say right? You only want what you brought.

Shockingly could it mean that once again east pilots being dishonest and saying one thing while trying to get more? Because you don't want what you brought, you want what the merger brought at the same time taking from the west and keep the west from getting what the merger brought for the west.

Why were we understaffed clear? You don't think this merger popped out of thin air on May 19, 2005 do you? Why did one of our management pilots spend a month in Tempe before LOA 93 came out?

If you want credit for the A/C that AWA brought to the merger, give us credit for the A/C we brought. Do you remember how quicky those ho-jos colored CRJ900 appeared on the east after the merger to replace the 737s and Abs we were sending back?

The company finally decided that it was no longer in their best interests to understaff. Why didn't Nicolau balance the staffing in his calculations?

You run you mouth and then aren't man enough to admit you are wrong. Kings of Tools.

You keep talking about the 190s. You want them? If not for my friends out there I'd love to see the company replace about 25-50 Airbus with 190s since they would count towards you min block hours. See how you like them then when you are forced into the right seat of one like our F/Os were back in 2009.