Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Yep. Entire affair could have been avoided, even after the NIC ruling...with a few, very few tweaks. The West would have inherited the airline by now but for a few compromises. They were this close.....

Same wall of NIC or nothing even then. And here we be.

Greeter

How few tweaks?

500 furloughed east pilots senior to active west pilots?

A 10 year fence?

All the upgrades for 7 years?

What do you consider just a few tweaks that would have avoided 8 years of battle and not having pissed off east pilots?

What was finally going to make you happy? Anything? Pension restored and your 2001 contract with full back pay and interest? All east pilots upgraded to captain and 30 more WB on order? Not enough?

You guys have been pissed for 25 years.

 

[Pi brat]

How few tweaks?

500 furloughed east pilots senior to active west pilots?

A 10 year fence?

All the upgrades for 7 years?

What do you consider just a few tweaks that would have avoided 8 years of battle and not having pissed of east pilots?

You guys have been pissed for 25 years.

We don't really know, do we? Sure there would have been pissed off east pilots, but there is pissed off and live with it and there is really pissed off and not. I think the cost to both sides would have been less than what we have paid.

You have had more pissed in 7 years than I have in 25.

 

[electricjet98]

I look at the entire process as one of checks and balances. It may not look pretty, but there is a healthy dynamic between leadership and BPR. And don't forget that power SHOULD reside in the BPR, the body which most directly reflects the sentiment of the rank and file. When USAPA is gone, its leadership structure will dissappear, but domicile representation will continue. As far as our collective I.Q., I would say apathy and ignorance of the issues has harmed us in the past. The seeds of the entire seniority debacle were sown a couple decades ago when ALPA merger policy was changed while we went on fat, dumb and happy - myself included.

"Checks and balances" or gridlocked dysfunction...I think the latter.

"Fat, dumb and happy" was even more prominent when the AA MC stated they felt comfortable with their DOH proposal...despite Nicolau stating it wouldn't fly.

East continues to be "fat, dumb and happy"...you can also add older and poorer to that mix!

 

[cleardirect]

I know you were asking Greeter but I'd like to add something else.

The primary emotion at that time was anger. Mostly anger at Nicolau and anger at ALPA. Lot's of left over anger from things unrelated to the Nicolau award. As we have seen on this board, anger is one of the most illogical emotions. I think the east ALPA MEC was under such pressure that they made a mistake with that. They knew they had some power with the TA, but they were very quickly pressured with leaving ALPA. The were trying to show the east pilots they had a handle on things and, again IMHO, they goofed. It did indeed widen the gulf.

I remember the night the Nicolau award came out and I thought " I don't think we have a leader at either of our MECs, ALPA national or the company that can get us through this." I think that they all let us down in some way. It's too bad we didn't have a leader that could narrow the gulf.

So the angry F/O is real, from what you are saying it is the angry east pilot. We all went into the arbitration on equal footing. The east having done mergers before the west had not. You had the advantage.

But because the east refused to see the reality of your situation. Because the angry entitled east pilots demanded unobtainable goals they would not allow the MC to do their job. Refused to negotiate, mediate or arbitrate in a reasonable manner you expected the west to just give you what you wanted?

The west played by the rules and were relieved that we did not get stapled. The rules say make your best case and accept the result. Done deal let's move on. So what because the east had weak leaders the west was supposed to hand you our careers and wait 5-10 years until you were finally happy?

After that the east pilots came unglued. Walked away from JNC. Marched on Herndon. Demanded ALAP fix the problem you created. Sued the west. Voted in usapa. Demanded DOH. Sued the west again. Delayed any contract. Cost the west time and money.

All because you children did not get what you wanted and were angry.

Now after 8 years you are trying to do what? Justify why you cost this pilots hundreds of millions of dollars? Looking for sympathy because your life has been so hard and your career so poor? Because angry people make bad decisions you are not to blame? Now you need unity against APA? When you don't get what you want again, for the west to give up this time?

I don't care if you were happy, sad or angry. What you and every east pilots have done for the last 8 years is unforgivable. usapa has the chance to do the right thing and live up to your agreements with this next integration, creat some unity and put the last 8 years behind us. Present the Nicolau and get the best outcome with APA. Otherwise the west will sue and win. We will not give up on our rights.

 

[cleardirect]

Charlotte Domicile Update February 22, 2013


Charlotte Domicile Update


We are frustrated and tired of the two battlefronts we continually face. The management that just convinced us to give up our scope for pennies on the dollar is a worthy enough opponent alone, but we must also defend our pilots from current union leadership that has assisted management in accomplishing their goals of devaluing the provisions of our contract without nearly adequate returns. We believe the leadership of our union has effectively stonewalled our efforts and prevented the use of appropriate resources while assuring at every turn, that our leverage was undermined and ultimately squandered. We failed to attain anything close to the maximum returns for our pilots, yet we enhanced and enriched this merger deal for many others. We are not so much complaining, but just explaining what is and has been occurring behind the scenes and expressing our frustration to you. ................................................................................................................................................................................................................. We can also report that the CLT recall attempt was extremely harmful in our effort to get you adequate returns. It couldn't have happened at a worse time, and we are sure that management is delighted with the actions of the pilots who were behind it.



If there had not been a recall attempt would the CLT Reps have allowed us to vote on the MOU?

There it is. From the CLT reps. Yes they voted for the MOU and told the pilots to vote for it. But it was not their fault and don't blame them. Cowards. Stand up for your decision or get out of the office.

Finger pointing and blame. Weak ass leadership.

 

[cleardirect]

Yes. As usual you don't seem to remember MOU I which was pulled by the company anyway. Each rep has a duty to evaluate this things and send them out. I know, you don't like them but CLT pilots overwhelmingly do.

I know, why don't you guys waste more money and have another recall??

How is that recall of Hummel going? Wasting money?

 

[Pi brat]

So the angry F/O is real, from what you are saying it is the angry east pilot. We all went into the arbitration on equal footing. The east having done mergers before the west had not. You had the advantage.

But because the east refused to see the reality of your situation. Because the angry entitled east pilots demanded unobtainable goals they would not allow the MC to do their job. Refused to negotiate, mediate or arbitrate in a reasonable manner you expected the west to just give you what you wanted?

The west played by the rules and were relieved that we did not get stapled. The rules say make your best case and accept the result. Done deal let's move on. So what because the east had weak leaders the west was supposed to hand you our careers and wait 5-10 years until you were finally happy?

After that the east pilots came unglued. Walked away from JNC. Marched on Herndon. Demanded ALAP fix the problem you created. Sued the west. Voted in usapa. Demanded DOH. Sued the west again. Delayed any contract. Cost the west time and money.

All because you children did not get what you wanted and were angry.

Now after 8 years you are trying to do what? Justify why you cost this pilots hundreds of millions of dollars? Looking for sympathy because your life has been so hard and your career so poor? Because angry people make bad decisions you are not to blame? Now you need unity against APA? When you don't get what you want again, for the west to give up this time?

I don't care if you were happy, sad or angry. What you and every east pilots have done for the last 8 years is unforgivable. usapa has the chance to do the right thing and live up to your agreements with this next integration, creat some unity and put the last 8 years behind us. Present the Nicolau and get the best outcome with APA. Otherwise the west will sue and win. We will not give up on our rights.

I never claimed the angry F/O was not real. To the contrary, I said they were very angry along with many angry captains. Funny thing. You have seen how that anger has effected things, yet instead of learning from it, YOU have become the poster boy for the Angry F/O.

Show me where I said I expected the west to give us whatever we wanted. Go ahead loudmouth, you let your rear overload your mouth and you never back it up.

I have said over and over that the west played by the rules and did nothing wrong. So what? Life's a ####. George Nicolau, combined with the TA screwed you. It was a set of circumstance that denied you from getting what you wanted with out giving up something else. And you have, in spades. You had a choice, be pragmatic and give in on certain areas, or form an "army" and by God take what is rightfully yours. We know how that has worked. You are well into that 5-10 year wait, aren't you? Nobody answers the question-Didn't ALPA and the company warn you of the pitfalls of your course of action? Yes, they did, but you went down that path anyway. You #### and whine about the TA, but now it is your best buddy because the Nicolau resides in it. Amazing!

If what has happened is unforgivable to you, fine. Living that way will rule your live and rob YOUR happiness. You can hate me for the rest of my life, I really don't care. It is also blinding us to the fact that we have a much bigger storm ahead. 87 pages on this months thread alone and I can't remember a single post on what we are going to do on the next SLI. You have become just like the east pilots. Letting the past rule your future.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

According to the MOU, we should have never started voting. We had the upper hand to wait and see if the AMR board was going to approve the merger. That. however, was given away. Tis all behind us now, time to move on!

Do you think the merger would have been announced on the 14th had we elected to drag our feet? Of course it would. Little USAPA was not driving the bus, the UCC was (and still is.) Upper hand, really?

Had the CLT reps been on the ball, and if they really thought there was more time to bargain, and more to be had..I ask (for the umpteenth time) "why did they not use roll call and stop it?"

It was time to vote. There is always more to be had. Reasonable persons know when the risk of trying to get more outweighs the resulting gain. 75% of our voting pilots agreed.

Greeter

 

[Beancounter]

Charlotte Domicile Update February 22, 2013


Charlotte Domicile Update


We are frustrated and tired of the two battlefronts we continually face. The management that just convinced us to give up our scope for pennies on the dollar is a worthy enough opponent alone, but we must also defend our pilots from current union leadership that has assisted management in accomplishing their goals of devaluing the provisions of our contract without nearly adequate returns. We believe the leadership of our union has effectively stonewalled our efforts and prevented the use of appropriate resources while assuring at every turn, that our leverage was undermined and ultimately squandered. We failed to attain anything close to the maximum returns for our pilots, yet we enhanced and enriched this merger deal for many others. We are not so much complaining, but just explaining what is and has been occurring behind the scenes and expressing our frustration to you. ................................................................................................................................................................................................................. We can also report that the CLT recall attempt was extremely harmful in our effort to get you adequate returns. It couldn't have happened at a worse time, and we are sure that management is delighted with the actions of the pilots who were behind it.



If there had not been a recall attempt would the CLT Reps have allowed us to vote on the MOU?

So these guys really represent the mindset of CLT pilots? I find that very disturbing. It reads like a pathetic, whiney, paranoid excuse. How any mature adult could read this and find it acceptable is beyond me. What I don't understand is that the majority of east pilots I meet seem like mature, intelligent adults. Is there just a lot of disengagement from the union?

Bean

 

[Pi brat]

So these guys really represent the mindset of CLT pilots? I find that very disturbing. It reads like a pathetic, whiney, paranoid excuse. How any mature adult could read this and find it acceptable is beyond me. What I don't understand is that the majority of east pilots I meet seem like mature, intelligent adults. Is there just a lot of disengagement from the union?

Bean

I think there are a lot of reasons for their staying power. A lot of guys are disengaged and don't really know what is going on. Knowing what is really going on is hard, because a lot of folks have become masters of the spin. And, these guys work really hard for the pilots on a personal level. Even though I have been a major thorn in their sides, they almost always answer my emails or phone calls. I usually send most questions to all of them and have always gotten an answer from at least one.

 

[cleardirect]

CLT update

We will be advocating for a mediated seniority solution with the APA. We believe that it will be in your best interest to have pilots, rather than arbitrators design a seniority list that will define the remainder of our futures.

Just how clueless are the CLT reps? Have they read the MOU?

There is no provision for mediation. It is negotiations, if that fails it goes straight to arbitration. Do a word search on the MOU for mediation.

Clueless and these are the guys you keep electing. Advocating for something that does not exist. Brings into question their judgment about the other things they are complaining about.

 

[cleardirect]

Another clueless comment from the CLT reps.

Your continued support of the Pension Investigation would be greatly appreciated by the PIC. We have been advised that having a large presence of uniformed pilots in attendance in the Washington Court House would be of value to our legal staff.

This is not a high school basketball game where home court advantage and the 6th man comes into play. This is federal court where the law and rules apply not who brings the biggest fan base.

But these are the same guys that thought holding the Addington in PHX created a biased judge.

How do any of you believe anything the CLT reps print. Facts seem to elude them.

 

[cleardirect]

I never claimed the angry F/O was not real. To the contrary, I said they were very angry along with many angry captains. Funny thing. You have seen how that anger has effected things, yet instead of learning from it, YOU have become the poster boy for the Angry F/O.

Show me where I said I expected the west to give us whatever we wanted. Go ahead loudmouth, you let your rear overload your mouth and you never back it up.

I have said over and over that the west played by the rules and did nothing wrong. So what? Life's a ####. George Nicolau, combined with the TA screwed you. It was a set of circumstance that denied you from getting what you wanted with out giving up something else. And you have, in spades. You had a choice, be pragmatic and give in on certain areas, or form an "army" and by God take what is rightfully yours. We know how that has worked. You are well into that 5-10 year wait, aren't you? Nobody answers the question-Didn't ALPA and the company warn you of the pitfalls of your course of action? Yes, they did, but you went down that path anyway. You #### and whine about the TA, but now it is your best buddy because the Nicolau resides in it. Amazing!

If what has happened is unforgivable to you, fine. Living that way will rule your live and rob YOUR happiness. You can hate me for the rest of my life, I really don't care. It is also blinding us to the fact that we have a much bigger storm ahead. 87 pages on this months thread alone and I can't remember a single post on what we are going to do on the next SLI. You have become just like the east pilots. Letting the past rule your future.

You said I have become like an east pilot but said I did not learn form it. You keep telling us that you have won. If being angry works I guess I did learn.

Your last few posts have been about the coming to usapa to compromise. You do not want a compromise you want the west to give you what you want. You have been complaining that the west has stood firm on the Nicolau. loud mouth.

No George Nicolau did not screw the west. That has been ALL east pilots. along with help from the company. Nicolau did his job. the west played by the rules. The east whined and failed in your obligation. This is all east pilots.

What you expected us to give in on was everything. What exactly was the west going to get out of giving in to terrorist threats? 5% of a contract while the east got 95%? Give in to the east so furloughed pilots could be senior to west captains? What was the west gaining by giving in to threats?

Yes the seniority storm is brewing. Yet usapa, the president and east pilots are still unwilling to live up to your obligation of using the Nicolau. You are risking in fact begging to be sued again instead if joining together and working towards a good solution with the APA. Once again the east pilots are screwing up an integration because you want some unobtainable goal.

 

[Pi brat]

You said I have become like an east pilot but said I did not learn form it. You keep telling us that you have won. If being angry works I guess I did learn.

Your last few posts have been about the coming to usapa to compromise. You do not want a compromise you want the west to give you what you want. You have been complaining that the west has stood firm on the Nicolau. loud mouth.

No George Nicolau did not screw the west. That has been ALL east pilots. along with help from the company. Nicolau did his job. the west played by the rules. The east whined and failed in your obligation. This is all east pilots.

What you expected us to give in on was everything. What exactly was the west going to get out of giving in to terrorist threats? 5% of a contract while the east got 95%? Give in to the east so furloughed pilots could be senior to west captains? What was the west gaining by giving in to threats?

Yes the seniority storm is brewing. Yet usapa, the president and east pilots are still unwilling to live up to your obligation of using the Nicolau. You are risking in fact begging to be sued again instead if joining together and working towards a good solution with the APA. Once again the east pilots are screwing up an integration because you want some unobtainable goal.

Again you run your mouth without anything to back it up. Don't tell me what I want. You prove your allegations about me or STFU.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

CLT update





Just how clueless are the CLT reps? Have they read the MOU?

There is no provision for mediation. It is negotiations, if that fails it goes straight to arbitration. Do a word search on the MOU for mediation.

Clueless and these are the guys you keep electing. Advocating for something that does not exist. Brings into question their judgment about the other things they are complaining about.

Clear, I am not sure about mediation. I am sure, however, about the CLT reps being clueless. Your point is well taken. But for discussion (and that what this is, I am not sure) here is part of what you refer to.

"10. a. A seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond shall begin as soon as possible
after the Effective Date. If, on the date ninety (90) days following the Effective Date, direct
negotiations have failed to result in a merged seniority list acceptable to the pilots at both airlines, a
panel of three neutral arbitrators will be designated within fifteen (15) days to resolve the dispute,
pursuant to the authority and requirements of McCaskill-Bond."

Process consistent with M/B? Is there not a mediation phase in M/B? Again, I am just asking. Also, there IS a reference to Mediation later in section 10 (G)

"This Memorandum may be offered into evidence or
shown to a mediator as background information and to describe the actual operations of the separate
carriers prior to expiration of the protections in Paragraph 8 of this Memorandum."

I will ask this another way: Can the parties ASK for mediation at some point? Seems that would be reasonable.

Greeter