Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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I never envisioned an outright display of muscle by any party.

I'm sure King George never envisioned the colonists display of anger and muscle, but he was separated by an ocean and little communication. You guys had the internet, ALPA and then the company telling you just how upset we were and with the transition agreement we had what danger that put you guys in. A lot of people were trying to head this thing off, nobody listened on either side.

Take care.
 
I'm sure King George never envisioned the colonists display of anger and muscle, but he was separated by an ocean and little communication. You guys had the internet, ALPA and then the company telling you just how upset we were. A lot of people were trying to head this thing off, nobody listened on either side.

Take care.

Yep. Entire affair could have been avoided, even after the NIC ruling...with a few, very few tweaks. The West would have inherited the airline by now but for a few compromises. They were this close.....

Same wall of NIC or nothing even then. And here we be.

Greeter
 
Yep. Entire affair could have been avoided, even after the NIC ruling...with a few, very few tweaks. The West would have inherited the airline by now but for a few compromises. They were this close.....

Same wall of NIC or nothing even then. And here we be.

Greeter

I talked to a guy that was deeply involved the other day and I had no idea how close we were.
 
Yep. Entire affair could have been avoided, even after the NIC ruling...with a few, very few tweaks. The West would have inherited the airline by now but for a few compromises. They were this close.....

Same wall of NIC or nothing even then. And here we be.

Greeter

Why couldn't you have talked within the confines of JNC? Why the need for the 'upper hand?' Can you not see the effect that has on people?
 
Why couldn't you have talked within the confines of JNC? Why the need for the 'upper hand?' Can you not see the effect that has on people?

I was not a party to Wye River. The solution was on the table, but one side was forbidden to even discuss it.

Not my call. I will agree BOTH sides were pretty hard nosed prior to the ruling. The fences offered by the East WITH the NIC at Wye would already be over by now.

Greeter
 
I was not a party to Wye River. The solution was on the table, but one side was forbidden to even discuss it.

Not my call. I will agree BOTH sides were pretty hard nosed prior to the ruling. The fences offered by the East WITH the NIC at Wye would already be over by now.

Greeter

Maybe. But what would the east have done in the face of a 2/3 greater west exerting it's muscle with ALPO's ear have been? There isn't two bits of differnence between our two groups of people. It doesn't matter who, it's just to bad one of the parties was a third bigger and had ALPO's ear, followed by the single bargaining unit and election.

You guys aren't apologizing for ganging up, and we aren't apologizing for not just wimpering and giving in. It's a sad tale, but it is what it is.
 
Why couldn't you have talked within the confines of JNC? Why the need for the 'upper hand?' Can you not see the effect that has on people?

I know you were asking Greeter but I'd like to add something else.

The primary emotion at that time was anger. Mostly anger at Nicolau and anger at ALPA. Lot's of left over anger from things unrelated to the Nicolau award. As we have seen on this board, anger is one of the most illogical emotions. I think the east ALPA MEC was under such pressure that they made a mistake with that. They knew they had some power with the TA, but they were very quickly pressured with leaving ALPA. The were trying to show the east pilots they had a handle on things and, again IMHO, they goofed. It did indeed widen the gulf.

I remember the night the Nicolau award came out and I thought " I don't think we have a leader at either of our MECs, ALPA national or the company that can get us through this." I think that they all let us down in some way. It's too bad we didn't have a leader that could narrow the gulf.
 
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Charlotte Domicile Update February 22, 2013


Charlotte Domicile Update


We are frustrated and tired of the two battlefronts we continually face. The management that just convinced us to give up our scope for pennies on the dollar is a worthy enough opponent alone, but we must also defend our pilots from current union leadership that has assisted management in accomplishing their goals of devaluing the provisions of our contract without nearly adequate returns. We believe the leadership of our union has effectively stonewalled our efforts and prevented the use of appropriate resources while assuring at every turn, that our leverage was undermined and ultimately squandered. We failed to attain anything close to the maximum returns for our pilots, yet we enhanced and enriched this merger deal for many others. We are not so much complaining, but just explaining what is and has been occurring behind the scenes and expressing our frustration to you. ................................................................................................................................................................................................................. We can also report that the CLT recall attempt was extremely harmful in our effort to get you adequate returns. It couldn't have happened at a worse time, and we are sure that management is delighted with the actions of the pilots who were behind it.



If there had not been a recall attempt would the CLT Reps have allowed us to vote on the MOU?
 
red%20section%20of%20banner%20-%20ic.png


Charlotte Domicile Update February 22, 2013


Charlotte Domicile Update


We are frustrated and tired of the two battlefronts we continually face. The management that just convinced us to give up our scope for pennies on the dollar is a worthy enough opponent alone, but we must also defend our pilots from current union leadership that has assisted management in accomplishing their goals of devaluing the provisions of our contract without nearly adequate returns. We believe the leadership of our union has effectively stonewalled our efforts and prevented the use of appropriate resources while assuring at every turn, that our leverage was undermined and ultimately squandered. We failed to attain anything close to the maximum returns for our pilots, yet we enhanced and enriched this merger deal for many others. We are not so much complaining, but just explaining what is and has been occurring behind the scenes and expressing our frustration to you. ................................................................................................................................................................................................................. We can also report that the CLT recall attempt was extremely harmful in our effort to get you adequate returns. It couldn't have happened at a worse time, and we are sure that management is delighted with the actions of the pilots who were behind it.



If there had not been a recall attempt would the CLT Reps have allowed us to vote on the MOU?
Yes. As usual you don't seem to remember MOU I which was pulled by the company anyway. Each rep has a duty to evaluate this things and send them out. I know, you don't like them but CLT pilots overwhelmingly do.

I know, why don't you guys waste more money and have another recall??
 
I know you were asking Greeter but I'd like to add something else.

The primary emotion at that time was anger. Mostly anger at Nicolau and anger at ALPA. Lot's of left over anger from things unrelated to the Nicolau award. As we have seen on this board, anger is one of the most illogical emotions. I think the east ALPA MEC was under such pressure that they made a mistake with that. They knew they had some power with the TA, but they were very quickly pressured with leaving ALPA. The were trying to show the east pilots they had a handle on things and, again IMHO, they goofed. It did indeed widen the gulf.

I remember the night the Nicolau award came out and I thought " I don't think we have a leader at either of our MECs, ALPA national or the company that can get us through this." I think that they all let us down in some way. It's too bad we didn't have a leader that could narrow the gulf.
Again, if Jack Stephan and our MEC simply would have read Flying the Line Vol. I and II ALPA would have been off the property after BK II for their failure to coalese the industry rank and file. If ANY union could control the pilot business product we'd all be better off as a group.

After our merger two of the LARGEST unions in the US will NOT be ALPA.

Let the games begin.
 
Yes. As usual you don't seem to remember MOU I which was pulled by the company anyway. Each rep has a duty to evaluate this things and send them out. I know, you don't like them but CLT pilots overwhelmingly do.

I know, why don't you guys waste more money and have another recall??
I agree with Jake on this one. Had there not been a recall underway, the CLT reps would have found a way to block a vote and send it back to the table...warnings to the contrary be damned. I'd spend that money again in a second. The CLT pilots have spoken however. They want this kind of leadership. They want turmoil at the BPR level. They want the hardliners in place to show the company who's boss (right.....). I've talked to AA pilots since then and they cannot understand why everyone wouldn't want this deal and a guaranteed second shot of negotiations for a joint contract. This latest rag, put out by the CLT reps is nothing but more division, leveled at the current USAPA leadership. I for one will be SO GLAD when USAPA is no more. We don't deserve any kind of power because we aren't smart enough as a group to handle it. History proves it. APA will certainly be a better alternative.
 
I agree with Jake on this one. Had there not been a recall underway, the CLT reps would have found a way to block a vote and send it back to the table...warnings to the contrary be damned. I'd spend that money again in a second. The CLT pilots have spoken however. They want this kind of leadership. They want turmoil at the BPR level. They want the hardliners in place to show the company who's boss (right.....). I've talked to AA pilots since then and they cannot understand why everyone wouldn't want this deal and a guaranteed second shot of negotiations for a joint contract. This latest rag, put out by the CLT reps is nothing but more division, leveled at the current USAPA leadership. I for one will be SO GLAD when USAPA is no more. We don't deserve any kind of power because we aren't smart enough as a group to handle it. History proves it. APA will certainly be a better alternative.
According to the MOU, we should have never started voting. We had the upper hand to wait and see if the AMR board was going to approve the merger. That. however, was given away. Tis all behind us now, time to move on!
 
Okay, the date was back in 2007. Got a letter from Parker stating the company accepted the Nic in conclusion of section 4 of the TA.

Let me know when the company accepts usapa's DOH proposal that they turned down in 2008 at the bargaining table. Also, kindly inform me when the company gives the unions employment data that does not include ranking via the Nic award!
Poor little nic. She wants the nic, but nic can't get the nic. And it is because of the nic that we could not get a contract that would allow nic to use the nic. Nic thinks the nic is in currently in effect, but no effect is so far a result of the nic, except that nic still cannot use the nic.
 
I agree with Jake on this one. Had there not been a recall underway, the CLT reps would have found a way to block a vote and send it back to the table...warnings to the contrary be damned. I'd spend that money again in a second. The CLT pilots have spoken however. They want this kind of leadership. They want turmoil at the BPR level. They want the hardliners in place to show the company who's boss (right.....). I've talked to AA pilots since then and they cannot understand why everyone wouldn't want this deal and a guaranteed second shot of negotiations for a joint contract. This latest rag, put out by the CLT reps is nothing but more division, leveled at the current USAPA leadership. I for one will be SO GLAD when USAPA is no more. We don't deserve any kind of power because we aren't smart enough as a group to handle it. History proves it. APA will certainly be a better alternative.

I look at the entire process as one of checks and balances. It may not look pretty, but there is a healthy dynamic between leadership and BPR. And don't forget that power SHOULD reside in the BPR, the body which most directly reflects the sentiment of the rank and file. When USAPA is gone, its leadership structure will dissappear, but domicile representation will continue. As far as our collective I.Q., I would say apathy and ignorance of the issues has harmed us in the past. The seeds of the entire seniority debacle were sown a couple decades ago when ALPA merger policy was changed while we went on fat, dumb and happy - myself included.
 
I look at the entire process as one of checks and balances. It may not look pretty, but there is a healthy dynamic between leadership and BPR. And don't forget that power SHOULD reside in the BPR, the body which most directly reflects the sentiment of the rank and file. When USAPA is gone, its leadership structure will dissappear, but domicile representation will continue. As far as our collective I.Q., I would say apathy and ignorance of the issues has harmed us in the past. The seeds of the entire seniority debacle were sown a couple decades ago when ALPA merger policy was changed while we went on fat, dumb and happy - myself included.
I agree with much of your post, however you can have checks and balances without the back biting, knife throwing and undermining that is going on between the CLT reps and the officers. It is all designed for one thing IMO...to make McKee king.
 
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