Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

You are risking in fact begging to be sued again instead if joining together and working towards a good solution with the APA.

I say it is time to put your money where you mouth is. You guys have been saying you just have to wait until your DFR is ripe. Your AOL leaders said in their update that the MOU makes it ripe. File! File on Monday. Let's get this over with and maybe you can participate on the next bid that has vacancies in the east bases. What do you say clear?

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Clear, I am not sure about mediation. I am sure, however, about the CLT reps being clueless. Your point is well taken. But for discussion (and that what this is, I am not sure) here is part of what you refer to.

"10. a. A seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond shall begin as soon as possible
after the Effective Date. If, on the date ninety (90) days following the Effective Date, direct
negotiations have failed to result in a merged seniority list acceptable to the pilots at both airlines, a
panel of three neutral arbitrators will be designated within fifteen (15) days to resolve the dispute,
pursuant to the authority and requirements of McCaskill-Bond."

Process consistent with M/B? Is there not a mediation phase in M/B? Again, I am just asking. Also, there IS a reference to Mediation later in section 10 (G)

"This Memorandum may be offered into evidence or
shown to a mediator as background information and to describe the actual operations of the separate
carriers prior to expiration of the protections in Paragraph 8 of this Memorandum."

I will ask this another way: Can the parties ASK for mediation at some point? Seems that would be reasonable.

Greeter

Under M/B which utilizes sections 3 and 13 of the A-M LPPs, any process if mutually agreed to by APA and USAPA could be used which would allow for mediation.

 

[traderjake]

A lot of guys are disengaged and don't really know what is going on. Knowing what is really going on is hard, because a lot of folks have become masters of the spin.

A lot of our guys think the way you negotiate is to ask for everything (like we did during the West seniority integration) and see how much of it you're given rather than taking responsibility and making informed decisions.

I remember talking to an F/O in the PHL crew room who said "When Nicolau sees how bad we want DOH he'll give it to us".

 

[Walmartgreeter]

I say it is time to put your money where you mouth is. You guys have been saying you just have to wait until your DFR is ripe. You AOL leaders said in their update that the MOU makes it ripe. File! File on Monday. Let's get this over with and maybe you can particpate on the next bid that has vacancies in the east bases. What do you say clear?

I have no doubt they will file "something" soon. It is their nature. But try and look at the silver lining. If we are "ripe" as they contend the Company can now publish a combined seniority list, and Judge Conrad will immediately lift our injunction. Whew, what relief it will be to have all that behind us.

Greeter

 

[traderjake]

I know, why don't you guys waste more money and have another recall??

Your boys were played perfectly to ensure a vote on the MOU.

Money well spent.

 

[Pi brat]

Under M/B which utilizes sections 3 and 13 of the A-M LPPs, any process if mutually agreed to by APA and USAPA could be used which would allow for mediation.

That is how I read it, but of course we have to defer to cleardirect as he knows exactly what everything means and what everyone thinks.

I found this good, short summary.

http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/airlinemg.pdf

 

[Pi brat]

A lot of our guys think the way you negotiate is to ask for everything (like we did during the West seniority integration) and see how much of it you're given rather than taking responsibility and making informed decisions.

I remember talking to an F/O in the PHL crew room who said "When Nicolau sees how bad we want DOH he'll give it to us".

I don't think most people believe in really negotiating at all. In the US/AW merger and this one it seems that many believe that there is no chance of a negotiated settlement, so why bother with real negotiating? Just forward the most extreme position in the hopes that the arbitrator(s) will come back with something decent. Was and is a bad idea, IMHO.

I suggested to USAPA that in the protocol agreement they have a statement that both sides are free to exchange any and all ideas and that both side agree to not hold those ideas against each other in arbitration. From what I remember that is why our MC didn't give the west committee the SL the Canadian company came up with, that if was less than LOS and they were afraid it would be held against us in arbitration.

 

[traderjake]

Just forward the most extreme position in the hopes that the arbitrator(s) will come back with something decent. Was and is a bad idea, IMHO.

It looks like we're going to do it again with this SLI.

 

[A320 Driver]

So these guys really represent the mindset of CLT pilots? I find that very disturbing. It reads like a pathetic, whiney, paranoid excuse. How any mature adult could read this and find it acceptable is beyond me. What I don't understand is that the majority of east pilots I meet seem like mature, intelligent adults. Is there just a lot of disengagement from the union?

Bean

Honest Bean...you would have to see it to believe it. I sat in USAPA headquarters for 3 days when MOU1 was being debated and it turned my stomach. Egotistical, power hungry freaking idiots. It's no wonder management hates our guts. This is what they have to deal with.

 

[A320 Driver]

It looks like we're going to do it again with this SLI.

Maybe, maybe not. With the number of retirements year over year, with a fence high enough DOH wouldn't be an issue and much easier to construct than the other methods. The two AA crews I talked to thought we could avoid arbitration with this. It was THEIR suggestion, not mine. I mentioned the NIC and they all said we could find a way to throw West a bone that would make enough of them satisfied as to not be an issue. Whatever that means.

 

[traderjake]

With the number of retirements year over year, with a fence high enough DOH wouldn't be an issue and much easier to construct than the other methods.

Do you believe APA is willing to make our any of A320 Captains and F/Os senior to their W/B Captains? Enough with high fences?

I don't, we'll see.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

My guess is what the APA is willing to sign off on to avoid arbitration, usapa and the east pilots will not like. A few guys talking here and there is one thing, when it comes down to brass tacks, that's another. I think the APA has plenty of good arguments that hold alot of water, and they will do ok in an arbitration. And I think they know it.

Bottom line, usapa and the east won't like what the APA is willing to sign off on to avoid arbitration, and the APA is not overly afraid of arbitration, so off we go.

I won't even go into where the west legal efforts end up, I have no clue. Even if the west litigation efforts fall totally flat before the arbitrators get it all, what will they do? Will they honor their colleagues previous work? Will they use 3 lists? Will they use one usapa DOH list? I don't know. But I believe we will see arbitration.

At any rate, our last 7 years of fun will be water under the bridge if the merger goes through. We'll have the rest of our careers to stew over it, or not, as we see fit. Personally, I'm not afraid of however it ultimately works out. It will be what it will be.

 

[Black Swan]

Yep. Entire affair could have been avoided, even after the NIC ruling...with a few, very few tweaks. The West would have inherited the airline by now but for a few compromises. They were this close.....

Same wall of NIC or nothing even then. And here we be.

Greeter

Those who understood the possibility of a new bargaining agent coming were more than aware. Freud realized more than most. Prater and the West pushed it over the edge. Both gambled and called it wrong. Compromise at that point? Too late.

 

[Black Swan]

How few tweaks?

500 furloughed east pilots senior to active west pilots?

A 10 year fence?

All the upgrades for 7 years?

What do you consider just a few tweaks that would have avoided 8 years of battle and not having pissed off east pilots?

What was finally going to make you happy? Anything? Pension restored and your 2001 contract with full back pay and interest? All east pilots upgraded to captain and 30 more WB on order? Not enough?

You guys have been pissed for 25 years.

Your attitude of all or nothing brought it to this. I know Joe Monda and the idea of him being with a new hire got you served with a new union. You showed gross poor judgement on trying that one. And I could give a damn for your explanation. I voted for USAPA and never looked back.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Why did there have to be a Wye River? What was wrong with the JNC process as designed? Prater coming up with all kinds of extra curricular methods of helping the east keep the upper hand was the wrong way to go about it. I knew there was a new bargaining agent coming. But I also felt making deals under duress is not good business. I realized the downside, and I'm still living it. I don't mean this in a neener neener way, more like just a sad matter of fact, but I don't regret it.

As it turns out, I think there was plenty of risk on all sides of this. And now, going forward with American and the APA, there is no fat daddy Prater to hold the other guys arms behind his back while concurrently demanding compromise and working on a new union to force the issue.

Ps. I can think of a couple east pilots, that had we been under the JNC process with equal footing, I personally would have had no problem working with. Now THAT not happening IS a regret on my part, not that I could really control it. But not bowing to being place under duress? No, I can't say that I regret that. I still have my honor, at least my own sense of it. I don't hold any ill will for the average east line pilot now, nor will I when all this is over.