Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

Maybe. Who knows?

But unlike last time, there will be no recourse.

You mean the recourse of demanding to stay on LOA93 in perpetuity?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Th APA will not go to the Arbitration process... They won the "Failing Carrier" case in front of the SCOTUS. There own arguments and awards (stapled) would be used against them, and they know it. They will come to a mutchully(sp) agreed upon SLI. They will not be walked on, but they will not allow it to get to the ARB stage...

Somehow I doubt even the arbitration panel would buy into the notion that AA is/was a "failing carrier" in any sense. They certainly needed the reorganization, but with $4 billion in cash, "failing" is a real stretch.

Arbitrators don't come out from under a rocks to do this. (Except maybe Nicolau.)

 

[Pi brat]

Hello Graceson...

While your viewpoint taken at face value may appear to have some merit. It is, however, specious at best. The problem with your viewpoint from my perspective is your definition of terms. What you so glibly proclaim to be "validation" of "economic viability and prosperity" comes with some caveats. That "validation" for the last eight years has been reaped directly off of your collective backs. It is relatively easy to claim "economic viability and prosperity" when you have crews flying wide bodies across the water at rates that other airlines are paying narrow body domestic crews, and domestic rates in the range of successful commuters. Let alone the higher cost to the company of my additional vacation, better medical, 401k contribution and world famous crew meals. (I was actually told that the company pays about $25 per meal for that crap.) On the other hand, apparently your training costs are significantly higher than ours. Given the choice, what financially astute CEO would not move all growth, aircraft and crews to the lower cost option. This in my opinion does not prove your case and these factors when considered, highlight the somewhat dubious nature of your claim of "validation" and "economic viability".
Because of issues like this, I believe that the "snapshot" method of integration is both appropriate and will continue to be used. The reality as I see it is that as of 2005, we are all in this together, for better or for worse. And although our operations may have been artificially kept separate, in the end I expect that "Commander Nic" will probably be the one given "validation".
Enjoy your weekend.

I agree with you that it is hard to tell what the numbers really are. But if you took Parker's value of what he is willing to pay it's around $120 million. That would still put our profit at around 400 million last year. Then, as you said, there would be synergies. We wouldn't have the artificial levels of flying in some bases that create soft time. The could fix our training costs. Perhaps they wouldn't have spent as much on other capital expenditures. The east pilots pretty much paid for those fancy bag scanners that improve bag handling stats and deliver bigger bonuses to the big guys.

 

[nycbusdriver]

"Mutchully"?!?? That was horrid.
Unless they agree to DoH with fences, a "mutchully" agreed to SLI is highly unlikely. The chances of this going to the panel is 99.9999%.

Nah! Not really.

The cross-section of pilot DOH/LOS among the three groups has not gone unnoticed by the APA. They have the rare opportunity to eventually take advantage of the east attrition using their own DOH/LOS.

If the fences are strong enough, and high enough, and long enough, the APA would be foolish to not sign off on at least a LOS integration. It would be to their future advantage.

With a strong 7-year fence off AA equipment and bases, most of the east list would be retired before they could get such a bid. Make the fence 10 years, and it's a cinch.

Of course, there would have to be conditions regarding shared growth, base closures, etc. But this airline can "belong" to the APA, or westies, in the years to come. It's up to the APA to decide, since they have the votes.

 

[nycbusdriver]

What an incredibly dumb thing to say! Admit that the entire purpose of uscaba is to violate the rights of those it has a DFR to represent.

Yup, Gary just let the cat out of the bag.

It's so hard to keep those pesky Constitution and By-Laws from becoming public.

Now EVERYBODY knows what they say about seniority. Damn!

 

[nycbusdriver]

I think the intention of AOL is stated very clearly in Marty's letters.

Use the Nic or get sued. Pretty straight forward really.

Yawn.

Same message that has been put out there for the last 5 years.

How's that working for you so far?

Yawn.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I agree with you that it is hard to tell what the numbers really are. But if you took Parker's value of what he is willing to pay it's around $120 million. That would still put our profit at around 400 million last year. Then, as you said, there would be synergies. We wouldn't have the artificial levels of flying in some bases that create soft time. The could fix our training costs. Perhaps they wouldn't have spent as much on other capital expenditures. The east pilots pretty much paid for those fancy bag scanners that improve bag handling stats and deliver bigger bonuses to the big guys.

Did you remember to put "fancy bag scanners" in the charitable contributions line on your Form-1040? Oh, wait LCC isn't a 501(c)3 so I guess you just made a purely altruistic donation to your employer. Bravo!

 

[nycbusdriver]

You mean the recourse of demanding to stay on LOA93 in perpetuity?

Yawn.

 

[Pi brat]

Did you remember to put "fancy bag scanners" in the charitable contributions line on your Form-1040? Oh, wait LCC isn't a 501©3 so I guess you just made a purely altruistic donation to your employer. Bravo!

Well CG, I'll admit it stings a bit. But probably not as much as your downgraded and furloughed pilots. They are the ones I feel for. I guess with the righteous Bravo! you don't. Integrity in action.

 

[snapthis]

You just nailed yourself and the west AF/Os.

More from the Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda

You need a history lesson on the founding of the AFO club.

Angry since 2007.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/travel/2007-09-22-pilots_N.htm


Angry pilots at US Airways near vote on union ouster

Pilot groups say internal squabbles started hindering contract negotiations in May when an arbitrator combined seniority lists that existed before America West bought US Airways in 2005. Those with the former US Airways said they were angry because America West pilots were given equal footing with US Airways pilots who had more years of service.

By Chris Kahn, Associated Press
PHOENIX — A group of disgruntled US Airways pilots says it's close to forcing a vote to choose a new union and stall contract negotiations with the carrier indefinitely.
Stephen H. Bradford, a US Airways pilot who leads the fledgling US Airline Pilots Association, said almost a majority of the airline's unionized pilots has called for a vote to pick new collective bargaining representatives. If about 150 more pilots join his cause, Bradford said he can ask the National Mediation Board to force a referendum on the Air Line Pilots Association, which currently represents the pilots.

Bradford said he expects to have a majority "in a month to six weeks. We are in the endgame of this, I would imagine."

The Tempe, Ariz.-based airline has struggled to merge its pilot groups following America West Airlines' acquisition of the former US Airways in 2005. Pilots from both carriers have been trying to hammer out a joint contract, but those who were with the original US Airways recently walked away from the negotiating table, demanding immediate pay raises before they return.

US Airways refused, and CEO Doug Parker said he won't deal with America West pilots independently. Company spokeswoman Andrea Rader said management still plans to meet Tuesday in Washington D.C., with America West pilots, as well as representatives from ALPA's national office.

But the company won't discuss pay issues specific to pilots from the former US Airways because their representatives aren't expected to come, Rader said. She added that a National Mediation Board-sponsored vote on union representation would throw the entire contract negotiation process into limbo.

"If one union is decertified and we have to start all over with another one, then that's pretty clear," Rader said.

America West pilots have watched Bradford's group with frustration. If he gets his way, two years of contract negotiations will be likely thrown out, said Tania Bziukiewicz, a spokeswoman for America West pilots.

"There's no expectation that the company's going to take all the work that's been done and go ahead," Bziukiewicz said.

Both pilot groups say internal squabbles started to hinder their contract negotiations in May when an arbitrator combined seniority lists between the two former airlines. Seniority determines whether pilots have to work on holidays, whether they can get weekends off, and the kind of planes they can fly.

Pilots from the former US Airways felt they got the short end of the deal. They said America West pilots were given equal footing with US Airways pilots who had more years of service.

"You have to understand how important that is to a pilot, Bradford said. "In many other job classifications, the seniority issue boils down to who gets vacations. In the case of an airline pilot, you're talking about opportunities (to be promoted) from co-pilot to captain.

"We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars per year" in salaries, he said. "It's a huge impact."

On Thursday, ALPA agreed to send the integrated seniority list to management.

Meanwhile, pilots from the former US Airways are suing the Air Line Pilots Association in hopes of overturning the arbitrator's seniority award. And Bradford's group is trying to replace ALPA altogether.

If he succeeds, Bradford said he would take another look at seniority.

"It would be revisited," he said. "We're not bound by that award."

According to National Mediation Board guidelines, a majority of a union's members must agree to authorize the federal agency to take action. The NMB typically conducts an investigation to ensure that the request for a vote on new representatives is valid. The agency will then supervise an election.

A majority of union members must participate for an election to be valid. The union that receives the most votes will be recognized as the collective bargaining agent for the pilots.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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Posted 9/22/2007 12:01 PM
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[CallawayGolf]

Well CG, I'll admit it stings a bit. But probably not as much as your downgraded and furloughed pilots. They are the ones I feel for. I guess with the righteous Bravo! you don't. Integrity in action.

My downgraded and furloughed pilots? I don't have any pilots - upgraded, downgraded, furloughed, or stagnant - on my payroll. What could I, any west pilot, or Management for that matter have done differently to have USAPA negotiate for a JCBA without also violating their DFR? Further, what unrighteous or lack of integrity action have I taken? Please be specific.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Yawn.

I think you said earlier this week you have about 1240 days left till retirement. Serious question, absent a merger, did you expect to retire on LOA93 or on a JCBA given the past seven years of failed progress under ALPA and USAPA?

 

[EastUS1]

So yes the merger is going to happen and the west will do nothing to stop it. With that said we will do everything we can to make sure that the Nicolau list is used in the integration.

What part of that don't you understand?

What part?...Well...perhaps the part where the following, mutually exclusive "thoughts" can even possibly, concurrently reside within anything that even laughably passes for a human brain: " the west will do nothing to stop it. With that said we will do everything we can to make sure that the Nicolau list is used in the integration."

If you're still all aglow from paying absurd amounts of money to lawyers to write meaningless, threatening letters, well...goody for you. If you're entirely unaware that threatening litigation means exactly that = a threat, then, well...you've my deepest sympathy. Spin things as you see fit, but DO, somewhere along your way down the rabbit hole...try to make even the slightest bit of sense. You would appear slightly less insane by at least making the effort.

 

[Pi brat]

My downgraded and furloughed pilots? I don't have any pilots - upgraded, downgraded, furloughed, or stagnant - on my payroll. What could I, any west pilot, or Management for that matter have done differently to have USAPA negotiate for a JCBA without also violating their DFR? Further, what unrighteous or lack of integrity action have I taken? Please be specific.

Oh, so since you don't pay them, you have no allegiance. I see.

Negotiate, like the courts said.

 

[traderjake]

The cross-section of pilot DOH/LOS among the three groups has not gone unnoticed by the APA. They have the rare opportunity to eventually take advantage of the east attrition using their own DOH/LOS.

If the fences are strong enough, and high enough, and long enough, the APA would be foolish to not sign off on at least a LOS integration. It would be to their future advantage.

With a strong 7-year fence off AA equipment and bases, most of the east list would be retired before they could get such a bid. Make the fence 10 years, and it's a cinch.

Of course, there would have to be conditions regarding shared growth, base closures, etc. But this airline can "belong" to the APA, or westies, in the years to come. It's up to the APA to decide, since they have the votes.

Make someone older than you (but flying a smaller airplane or even a F/O) senior to you so you can move up when they retire?

Do you really believe APA is going to make our 320 Captains and F/Os senior to their WB Captains? Even with fences?

APA can make themselves senior to the majority of the East and West from the start by slotting by equipement and status.

That way they don't have to wait for the attrition, they'll be senior and own the airline now.