Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[dca319]

Read the MOU. 98% of the west class approved it.
At the effective date, all pilots will be employed by American Airlines, inc.
The MTA, which is the MOU terms that modify the AA contract, will be your working agreement.
The MOU specifically says that all previous agreements are void.
The MOU specifically says that neither the MOU or MTA will alter the seniority lists currently in effect (east & west lists).
How can you possibly form an argument that the Nic will be implemented when that is specifically prohibited by the agreement you ratified?

Not buying it. Not that easy to get rid of the Nicolau. This MoU and SLI are two different animals and I find it hard to believe the west gave up Nicolau by voting in the MoU. AoL puts out letters to the APA and company, bypassing USAPA. Not a peep from our leadership. And now we have a recall attempt gearing up because the opposition says Hummel is giving away our seniority. If Nicolau is dead, why would they worry?
If it was as easy as you wrote, USAPA would have pushed it through.

 

[electricjet98]

You're getting better, with the ifs, but still full of crap. Back to 2008? You forget that one big fork in the road that keeps your guys from being "damaged", the transition agreement requirement for a joint contract before separate ops ends. It's kind of like the 9th. Yeah, they didn't talk about merits because the ripeness was a fork in the road that kept them from getting there.

You are not helping your boys with talk of damages. Some of them might actually listen to you.

Maybe you're thinking of this?


View attachment Motion for atty fees.pdf

 

[PullUp]

Not buying it. Not that easy to get rid of the Nicolau. This MoU and SLI are two different animals and I find it hard to believe the west gave up Nicolau by voting in the MoU. AoL puts out letters to the APA and company, bypassing USAPA. Not a peep from our leadership. And now we have a recall attempt gearing up because the opposition says Hummel is giving away our seniority. If Nicolau is dead, why would they worry?
If it was as easy as you wrote, USAPA would have pushed it through.

Yes they did.
Read it.
AoL is writing letters beating their chest and shouting out to counteract the irrelevant position they are now in.
The letters will be ignored, as AoL does not have any standing in the proceedings anymore.
This is also well defined in the MOU. As was stated the parties involved do not include any named class or 'army'.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The west class, as defined by Judge Silver, includes all west pilots, n'est pas?

Does that include the west new hires?

Ooops. nevermind

 

[PullUp]

Does that include the west new hires?

Ooops. nevermind

You mean the west new hires on the east list, soon to be E190 captains?
Hee hee.

 

[nic4us]

The Nic requires a joint contract to be ratified between USAPA and LCC.
Hasn't happened. Not going to happen.
The status quo seniority system is two separate lists - has been this way for 7 years.
Also, the MTA will be established at the 'effective date'. No negotiating required - the MTA is the MOU + the APA contract. LCC pilots will be under the APA contract as amended by the MOU terms until the JCBA. Also, at the implementation of the MTA (on the effective date), all prior agreements are null and void.
No wiggle room there.

You have it backwards.

The Nic does not require a joint contract, any joint contract requires the Nic.

 

[cleardirect]

MOU is not a contract. A joint east-west contract is not going to happen.
The new contract will be with American Airlines, Inc.
You are switching companies, and everything from the effective date backward is unenforceable, null, void, done, kaput.

OK! Let's just see how that works out for you.

Did LOA 93 go away when we switched companies? You did say EVERYTHING is unenforceable right?

 

[PullUp]

You have it backwards.

The Nic does not require a joint contract, any joint contract requires the Nic.

Bass Ackwards, dude. In order to be implemented, the pilots of former AWA and US must ratify a joint contract with LCC.
It's all in the T/A, which will disappear on the 'effective date', thus nullifying any claim to the Nic, and defining a new process to an integrated senioriy list: Negotiate with 2 lists from LCC for integration into AA's list. Failing that, M/B arbitration will be implemented using the same 3 lists.
The MOU specifically states that neither the MOU, MTA, or JCBA will change the status quo of 2 separate lists at LCC and that ONLY the process defined in the MOU will be utilized to form the new integrated seniority list between east, west, and AA.
It's all right there in black and white. This is the new reality.
Cheers.

 

[cleardirect]

Read the MOU. 98% of the west class approved it.
At the effective date, all pilots will be employed by American Airlines, inc.
The MTA, which is the MOU terms that modify the AA contract, will be your working agreement.
The MOU specifically says that all previous agreements are void.
The MOU specifically says that neither the MOU, MTA, or JCBA can provide the basis to alter the seniority lists currently in effect (east & west lists).
How can you possibly form an argument that the Nic will be implemented when that is specifically prohibited by the agreement you ratified?

Where does it say the Nicolau is prohibited? usapa has published updates that state the opposite.
Do you honestly think that a contract can over ride or void a federal judge?

Using your logic if all previous agreements are void. ALL your grievances go away. ALL the prior practice arguments go away. Everything you thought you had goes away. Is that how you think this is going to work?

The guys that got terminated tring to get their jobs back are just out of luck because you think EVERYTHING becomes void?

 

[nycbusdriver]

...The pilot representatives emphasized the need for a new culture that effectively engages employees and recognizes our pilots’ leadership role in the operation of the airline. The executives acknowledged the need to create a new corporate culture and to build trust and credibility between the airline’s management and front-line employees...


...The APA and USAPA boards then met in closed session with the US Airways executives, which afforded the opportunity for a more direct and, at times, pointed exchange between the executives and pilot representatives...

....where Parker, having just promised a new corporate culture, told both boards that: "When I tell you guys to go pound sand, you will go pound sand!"

 

[nic4us]

No, you misunderstand my statement. Judge Silver redefined the class to include all west pilots so that anything pertaining to the 'class' applies to all the west pilots. Like the vote results: 98% of the west 'class' voted for the MOU terms.

Wrong again...

98% of the West usapa MIGs voted for the MOU. More likely 100% of the West MIGs voted for the MOU and the scab union disqualified 2% of the vote, but I digress.

Judge Silver defined the West class as all West pilots in the employment of AWA in 2005. Which BTW happens to be the same definition of the pilot group that took part in a binding arbitration with the pilots in the employ (although days away from losing that employed part) of US Airways.

Hey, here is another tidbit for you...uscaba now represents both of those groups and has what is called a DFR owed to all.

Bottom line is the only legal out is using the only accepted system seniority list for LCC when dealing for those classes.

 

[PullUp]

OK! Let's just see how that works out for you.

Did LOA 93 go away when we switched companies? You did say EVERYTHING is unenforceable right?

At the effective date EVERYTHING (contract, LOAs, grievances, the whole shabang) is tossed in the big round can.
The ONLY agreement is the AA contract as modified by the MOU (which is now called the MTA).
Yes, specifically, LOA93 will go away on the 'effective date'. So will the west contract. So will the existing T/A. Poof.
If I were trying to get my job back after being canned, I'd be on the phone with the union and an attorney right now.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Did LOA 93 go away when we switched companies? You did say EVERYTHING is unenforceable right?

Well, no. It didn't. But had the TA been worded to void it, it would have gone away.

This is contract stuff, not magic.

 

[PullUp]

Where does it say the Nicolau is prohibited?
It doesn't specifically say it, but it does say that these agreements cannot be used to change the existing seniority LISTS at LCC.

Do you honestly think that a contract can over ride or void a federal judge?
An agreement ratified by the membership under the RLA carries a lot of weight. I don't think a judge will touch it.

Using your logic if all previous agreements are void. ALL your grievances go away. ALL the prior practice arguments go away. Everything you thought you had goes away. Is that how you think this is going to work?
YES.

The guys that got terminated trying to get their jobs back are just out of luck because you think EVERYTHING becomes void?
I'd be very worried if I was in that situation.

 

[PullUp]

OK! Let's just see how that works out for you.

Did LOA 93 go away when we switched companies? You did say EVERYTHING is unenforceable right?

Dude, we don't switch companies until the 'effective date'. THEN, every past agreement goes poof.
Read it, you'll see.