Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[dca319]

The east should be asking their reps a lot of questions....

Ustupid has these guy totally blind.

I've been trying to convey that exact concern but its falling on deaf ears. Reps don't return calls or emails. Like it was stated, we went into LoA93 thinking it was a sure bet only to be disappointed at the loss. Hard truths and plan b's would be nice to hear instead of "Nic is dead".

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Why do you call it "supposed"? They clearly defined their starting point and time frame in their filing.

Accepting the logic of the "supposed" deadline means accepting the premise we have a newly ratified contract. That premise is false.

Greeter

 

[Walmartgreeter]

That's incorrect. The company can invite whomever they want to the table as it is their prerogative. I believe you'll see the west class represented by AoL during SLI.

Maybe. Maybe not. But it won't be "the Company" bringing the West class to the table. I am not saying the AOL will not get a seat, it could happen. But to do so would be saying they are no longer represented by USAPA, rather USAPA is no longer responsible for the outcome. I just don't see that, any more than the TWA pilots getting status. They are already represented by APA, just as the PHX pilots are already represented by USAPA. It is my understanding status would be most likely to be granted to a group NOT already represented. Uncharted waters.

Greeter

 

[dca319]

Accepting the logic of the "supposed" deadline means accepting the premise we have a newly ratified contract. That premise is false.

Greeter

It appears they think otherwise. So one of you is wrong - the lawyer or the line pilot. Now who do I put my money on here?

 

[dca319]

Maybe. Maybe not. But it won't be "the Company" bringing the West class to the table. I am not saying the AOL will not get a seat, it could happen. But to do so would be saying they are no longer represented by USAPA, rather USAPA is no longer responsible for the outcome. I just don't see that, any more than the TWA pilots getting status. They are already represented by APA, just as the PHX pilots are already represented by USAPA. It is my understanding status would be most likely to be granted to a group NOT already represented. Uncharted waters.

Greeter

Yes, it will be the company. They can bring whomever they want to the table. This info comes from our attorney. And AoL isn't representing the west, just the west class - there's a huge difference there.

 

[cleardirect]

Since I doubt that usapa will be releasing the letter from the company anytime soon, just a few snipets from the 5 page letter to the NMB.

“Actually, it is USAPA that is needlessly delaying the resolution of the seniority dispute and jeopardizing the enforceability of the agreement the parties are able to reach.”

“As a result, the lawfulness of the date-of-hire seniority method USAPA is bound to apply has not been settled and has prevented an agreement on a post-merger single collective bargaining agreement for the US Airways pilots.” Regrettably, USAPA has interposed procedural issues in an attempt to prevent a ruling on the merits through the judicial process, and the parties will debate the issue before the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, likely sometime in the second half of 2013?”

But, but, but. Usapa keeps telling anyone that will listen that the Nicolau is dead and they can do whatever they want. Maybe the DOH list is not so cemented yet. The courts did not say usapa can do anything they want. The company says usapa can't just do whatever they want. The west pilots say usapa can't just do anything they want. Who is the odd man out in this situation?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Yes, it will be the company. They can bring whomever they want to the table. This info comes from our attorney. And AoL isn't representing the west, just the west class - there's a huge difference there.

So which West pilots are NOT included in the West class? I thought your one misguided correction to Judge Silver’s ruling did just that? But I am asking.

And how does bringing a third party to the table satisfy the Company's requirement to remain neutral in the process. I don't understand.

Greeter

 

[Metroyet]

The protocol is already established within the MOU..... negotiations between APA and USAPA, then MB arbitration.

It appears that Marty is trying to bypass the negotiation phase and go straight to MB.

He has NO authority to try to rewrite the MOU.
breeze

No. but a Judge does if it's found to be unlawful. Just because the MOU says some things doesn't mean anything. Whatever needs to be vetted in court will be.

 

[Metroyet]

As I suspected. All talk and a looming supposed deadline. Greeter

The statute of limitations and the resultant time barring are hardly a "supposed" deadline. It's concrete fact. I love how malleable troublesome facts are in the mind of Easties.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Can't even find the current east list because the wunderkin union won't even recognize DOH for the west pilots.

What is it, DOH or not???? Please play by your own rules.

Portly, a recent grievance update said the current East list is about to be reordered. Allowing for appeals by the affected pilots, they said an updated East list would be published in March. Other than some individuals that have accepted employment on the East, I don’t think the PHX pilots will be on that list, NIC or otherwise.

Greeter

 

[cleardirect]

More from the letter to the NMB.

“Unfortunately, USAPA is unwilling to concede that the courts will decide on whether its seniority method is lawful. Instead, USAPA has insisted that a protocol require the company to agree now to append the union’s date-of-hire seniority proposal to the tentative agreement to be put out for ratification by the pilot membership. That date-of-hire seniority list is inconsistent with the Transition Agreement and has repeatedly been challenged by the west pilots as a violation of USAPA’s duty of fair representation.”

If Seham was right why the reluctance to let the court decide. If you east pilots are on such hard legal ground let the court prove you correct. While the company may claim to be neutral what does that phrse tell you about the companies opinion of usaoas "proposal"

“USAPA has inexplicably resisted obtaining a judicial ruling concerning the lawfulness of its seniority proposal until after an agreement that may very well be nullified by a subsequent court action has been ratified. The approach insisted on by USAPA would cause significant and needless delay in the implementation of any CBA, particularly inasmuch as federal judges and a jury have already found USAPA’s proposal to be unlawful, and the west pilots have stated repeatedly that they will sue to invalidate any agreement that does not include the Nicolau Award.”

Once again where is the firm legal ground you have been told you stand on? Let the court decide if you have such a great case.

“While the West pilots have been willing to accept whatever result the court imposed, USAPA is not, arguing that no court decision should be issued until after the rest of the agreement has been negotiated. USAPA, not the company, is insisting on a protocol that would unnecessarily delay the implementation of a new CBA.”

Ummm. The west is willing to let a court decide but usapa is not. How does that case sound to you east pilots? Strong or weak if usapa is avoiding a decision.


Are you beginning to see a pattern? The west wants and is willing for the courts to decide this issue. It is usapa that wants delay and to prevent the court from ruling on this case. Only two reason for that. It is benefiting east pilots to delay and usapa wants to avoid the answer to the question if final and binding arbitration really means final and binding.

 

[dca319]

What letter to the NMB are you referring to? When was it sent? Can you post it in its entirely?

 

[cleardirect]

The seniority discussion could all be moot.

I recall that the west was told that the MDA pilots had a great DFR case against ALPA and that they were going to kill the Nicolau. That case did not go as planned but the MDA pilots have appealed.

The case was heard on the 8th. Anyone care to update us on the hearing or give a report on what was said?

Will the MDA pilots be awarded millions of dollars in damages and force ALPA to withdraw the Nicolau award?

Was the loss of the grievance proving that the MDA pilots were really furloughed also put into the record?

 

[cleardirect]

What letter to the NMB are you referring to? When was it sent? Can you post it in its entirely?

The letter is from Paul Jones to the NMB sent on November 28, 2012.

I think it would be better if it came from your union. You may believe it from them, you east pilots have accused me of lying. Call your rep for a copy.

 

[Claxon]

Can I let you in on a little secret? Marty does not need to be involved in the process. The walls are going to close in on usapa and they are going to be forced to present, defend and bargain using the Nicolau. Sweet poetic justice.

My hope is that Steve Bradford has to stand in front of the angry crowd and admit that he was wrong and lead you sheep down a very expensive dead end as they lock the doors to the usapa office having accomplished nothing but wasting years of our lives.

Please involve Marty. He has been proven particularly adroit at separating the western pilots from their cash. Urged on by the half baked legal stooges Ferguson and Mitch Vaselino. Their pea brained legal ventures are the eastern pilots best assets. Leonidas is to Harper as was the Teamsters retirement fund to Jimmy Hoffa.