Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Walmartgreeter]

Clear asked: "Are you beginning to see a pattern? The west wants and is willing for the courts to decide this issue. It is usapa that wants delay and to prevent the court from ruling on this case. Only two reason for that. It is benefiting east pilots to delay and usapa wants to avoid the answer to the question if final and binding arbitration really means final and binding."

We don't want the courts to decide at all. After 7 years all they did was tell you what we already knew.

Our old agent botched the last integration attempt. We just held a vote and almost 76% of our pilots (including almost all the voting PHX members) chose a new path to that end. There is no legal question in our mind as to whether an old bargaining proposal is binding on us. Judge Silver ruled it is not. You still have an opportunity to present your concerns to your union. I note you collectively have chosen not to do so. I am sure USAPA will do its best to bargain for you, as they will do for all US Airways pilots.

Greeter

 

[Pi brat]

I think it would be better if it came from your union. You may believe it from them, you east pilots have accused me of lying. Call your rep for a copy.

That's cute, you and DCA319 playing west pilot/east pilot together.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear asked: "Are you beginning to see a pattern? The west wants and is willing for the courts to decide this issue. It is usapa that wants delay and to prevent the court from ruling on this case. Only two reason for that. It is benefiting east pilots to delay and usapa wants to avoid the answer to the question if final and binding arbitration really means final and binding."

We don't want the courts to decide at all. After 7 years all they did was tell you what we already knew.

Our old agent botched the last integration attempt. We just held a vote and almost 76% of our pilots (including almost all the voting PHX members) chose a new path to that end. There is no legal question in our mind as to whether an old bargaining proposal is binding on us. Judge Silver ruled it is not. You still have an opportunity to present your concerns to your union. I note you collectively have chosen not to do so. I am sure USAPA will do its best to bargain for you, as they will do for all US Airways pilots.

Greeter

There is no question whether the bargaining proposal is binding on usapa. Judge Silver said that it was. These are her words. Where do you see in her order that usapa is not bound by prior agreements?

III. Discussion
The primary focus of the parties’ summary judgment filings is whether the Transition
Agreement is “binding” on USAPA. According to USAPA, it is “not ‘contractually’ bound
by any of ALPA’s agreements,” including the Transition Agreement. (Doc. 160 at 10). But
the West Pilots, as well as US Airways, cite a variety of authority supporting the position that
the “decertification of ALPA and the certification of USAPA did not change the binding
nature of the Transition Agreement.” (Doc. 164 at 7). The West Pilots and US Airways are
correct.

When USAPA became the pilots’ new collective bargaining representative, it
succeeded “to the status of the former representative without alteration in the contract terms.”
Int’l Bhd. of Teamsters v. Texas Int’l Airlines, Inc., 717 F.2d 157, 163 (5th Cir. 1983). As
there does not appear to be any dispute that the Transition Agreement was part of the contract
between the pilots and US Airways, the Transition Agreement applies to USAPA. Even the
case which USAPA relies upon states there is a “general principle that collective bargaining
agreements survive a change in representative.” Ass’n of Flight Attendants, AFL-CIO v.
USAir, Inc., 24 F.3d 1432, 1439 (D.C. Cir. 1994). Thus, just as ALPA would have been
bound by the Transition Agreement had it remained the pilots’ representative, USAPA is
bound by the Transition Agreement.2

Wrong twice in the same post.

Yes the west has presented our concerns to usapa. Quite strongly as a matter of fact and mulitple times. The latest being letters this week. I don't know how many times it takes for something to sink into the collect thick head of east pilots but the west has repeated our concerns and our positon. The company gets it and told the court and the NMB. The west will only eccept the Nicolau award. Anything will cause a law suit.

Clear enough?

 

[PullUp]

Yes, it will be the company. They can bring whomever they want to the table. This info comes from our attorney. And AoL isn't representing the west, just the west class - there's a huge difference there.

The west class, as defined by Judge Silver, includes all west pilots, n'est pas?

 

[Pi brat]

Hey clear, a question. What do you think the purpose of the company's letter to the NMB was?

 

[PullUp]

Yes I read the MOU.

The MOU does not void all prior agreements, the MOU calls for the establishment of an MTA which will void all prior agreements, at the earliest practical time!

The Nic is in effect as the status quo system seniority list at LCC.

The Nic requires a joint contract to be ratified between USAPA and LCC.
Hasn't happened. Not going to happen.
The status quo seniority system is two separate lists - has been this way for 7 years.
Also, the MTA will be established at the 'effective date'. No negotiating required - the MTA is the MOU + the APA contract. LCC pilots will be under the APA contract as amended by the MOU terms until the JCBA. Also, at the implementation of the MTA (on the effective date), all prior agreements are null and void.
No wiggle room there.

 

[cleardirect]

The Nic requires a joint contract to be ratified between USAPA and LCC.
Hasn't happened. Not going to happen.
The status quo seniority system is two separate lists - has been this way for 7 years.

We just agreed to an MOU between LCC and usapa. It just happened to included AMR and the APA.

The MOU states that a joint contract will happen, very quickly. It is going to happen

 

[dca319]

That's cute, you and DCA319 playing west pilot/east pilot together.

Trader too?

 

[dca319]

The west class, as defined by Judge Silver, includes all west pilots, n'est pas?

It does. But for a different purpose than what USAPA represents them.

 

[cleardirect]

Hey clear, a question. What do you think the purpose of the company's letter to the NMB was?

I have my thoughts. But I am in a good mood today. Why don't you expound on your conspiracy theories of how or why the company, the courts and west is wrong while usapa has it all perfectly correct.


I could use a good chuckle. The fertile and demented mind of east pilots always fascinates me.

Do you have a full copy yet? usapa being transparent in their governance?

 

[PullUp]

We just agreed to an MOU between LCC and usapa. It just happened to included AMR and the APA.

The MOU states that a joint contract will happen, very quickly. It is going to happen

MOU is not a contract. A joint east-west contract is not going to happen.
The new contract will be with American Airlines, Inc.
You are switching companies, and everything from the effective date backward is unenforceable, null, void, done, kaput.

 

[PullUp]

It does. But for a different purpose than what USAPA represents them.

No, you misunderstand my statement. Judge Silver redefined the class to include all west pilots so that anything pertaining to the 'class' applies to all the west pilots. Like the vote results: 98% of the west 'class' voted for the MOU terms.

 

[dca319]

No, you misunderstand my statement. Judge Silver redefined the class to include all west pilots so that anything pertaining to the 'class' applies to all the west pilots. Like the vote results: 98% of the west 'class' voted for the MOU terms.

Which has nothing to do with surrendering the Nicolau.

 

[dca319]

MOU is not a contract. A joint east-west contract is not going to happen.
The new contract will be with American Airlines, Inc.
You are switching companies, and everything from the effective date backward is unenforceable, null, void, done, kaput.

That logic has worked so well for us before - what could go wrong?

 

[PullUp]

That logic has worked so well for us before - what could go wrong?

Read the MOU. 98% of the west class approved it.
At the effective date, all pilots will be employed by American Airlines, inc.
The MTA, which is the MOU terms that modify the AA contract, will be your working agreement.
The MOU specifically says that all previous agreements are void.
The MOU specifically says that neither the MOU, MTA, or JCBA can provide the basis to alter the seniority lists currently in effect (east & west lists).
How can you possibly form an argument that the Nic will be implemented when that is specifically prohibited by the agreement you ratified?