Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion
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cleardirect
Veteran
- May 24, 2008
- 6,234
- 9,749
- Banned
- #497
You are going to be a busy guy.
What with the Nicolau coming not much defense for you to "protect your job in CLT" But there are going to be another 8500 APA pilots coming for "your job in CLT" too.
They may only be 12 or 13 years less LOS but to be sure they will be senior to you.
cleardirect
Veteran
- May 24, 2008
- 6,234
- 9,749
- Banned
- #498
This is going to be be fun to watch as 8500 APA guys come for your job.
BTW you are the only one talking about weapons. Please be careful. The west is fine in our legal position you are the one sounding weak trying to protect his little back yard. Yippie dog trying to sound tough.
snapthis
Veteran
- Dec 23, 2009
- 4,236
- 6,907
February 19, 2013
Leonidas Update
On February 8th, the pilots of US Airways voted in favor of the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) negotiated by USAPA, US Airways, the APA and American Airlines. The MOU places all US Airways pilots under a single contract; there is no legitimate union purpose to use any other seniority scheme than the Nicolau Award. West pilots expect, and will require, the company and USAPA to honor the final and binding arbitration that resulted in the Nicolau Award.
“We conclude that this case presents contingencies that could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the accompanying injury......Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s seniority proposal....” [Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, pg. 9]
“Although we do not hold that a DFR claim based on a union’s promotion of a policy is never ripe until that policy is effectuated......” [Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, pg. 12]
Negotiations addressing the contingencies that can affect seniority are complete. Retrospective pay began February 8th, and the rest of the MOU provisions will be imposed on all parties as we work toward a JCBA with APA.
The MOU was written to be neutral on the Nicolau Award. The process leading to the Nicolau Award was dictated by a separate section of the prior Bankruptcy Court-ordered Transition Agreement and was not subject to independent ratification apart from the other 29 sections of a new contract. Ratification of an entirely new contract, replacing both existing East and West contracts, took place in the form of the MOU passage.
The ratification vote of the MOU eviscerates USAPA’s primary argument for a Legitimate Union Purpose, as USAPA has always maintained that the Nicolau Award itself created an impasse to obtaining a joint contract:
“In effect, USAPA claims that the East Pilots hold such strong objections to the Nicolau Award that they always will vote as a bloc against any new CBA with it, enjoying the self-denial of a single CBA with improved wages and working conditions into perpetuity. Even if this unbelievable story is believed, it only means that the East Pilots have the power of self-inflicted harm. It does not mean that the union’s duty of fair representation falls victim to self-hostagetaking.
Whether considered as a matter of fact or law, the asserted impasse does not absolve USAPA from liability.” [Judge Wake, Doc. 593 pg. 29]
For years, our position has been that the "impasse" referred to by USAPA was one of its own making. Judge Wake agreed with us and referred to it in his "Statement of Facts" (doc 593) as "self-hostagetaking" and calling USAPA's claim that the East would vote "against any new CBA..... with improved wages and working conditions into perpetuity" an "unbelievable story".
The MOU vote has proven us (and Judge Wake) right: Given enough money there never was an impasse. However, pretending there was an impasse gave both USAPA and US Airways what they wanted. USAPA kept separate operations and avoided the Nicolau and management used the whipsaw to keep our wages the lowest in the industry (even lower with every hour of flying management could transfer East)!
On Monday, February 18, 2013, the attorneys for the West Pilots took the first step, post-merger announcement, by placing all parties on notice that we are prepared to take appropriate legal action to protect our right to the Nicolau Award. You may read the letter here.
Much damage has been done to US Airways pilots through USAPA’s refusal to negotiate a JCBA with improved pay and benefits prior to a merger with American Airlines. So much so that East pilots will enjoy breathtaking raises and benefit improvements by overwhelmingly ratifying the contract of a bankrupt carrier after it failed to achieve anything (except delay) while “representing” pilots at one of the industry's most profitable airlines over the last five years.
A unified front is required to secure the best possible future for US Airways pilots at the New American Airlines, but the West pilots will not forfeit our seniority rights to create that facade. Instead, we will require USAPA, US Airways, the APA and the New American Airlines to honor the clear-cut obligations to which they succeeded, (or will succeed). This means nothing less than the implementation of the Nicolau Award as the single list for the US Airways side of the AA/US integration equation. Nothing less will suffice.
Sincerely,
Leonidas, LLC
Leonidas Update
On February 8th, the pilots of US Airways voted in favor of the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) negotiated by USAPA, US Airways, the APA and American Airlines. The MOU places all US Airways pilots under a single contract; there is no legitimate union purpose to use any other seniority scheme than the Nicolau Award. West pilots expect, and will require, the company and USAPA to honor the final and binding arbitration that resulted in the Nicolau Award.
“We conclude that this case presents contingencies that could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the accompanying injury......Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s seniority proposal....” [Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, pg. 9]
“Although we do not hold that a DFR claim based on a union’s promotion of a policy is never ripe until that policy is effectuated......” [Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, pg. 12]
Negotiations addressing the contingencies that can affect seniority are complete. Retrospective pay began February 8th, and the rest of the MOU provisions will be imposed on all parties as we work toward a JCBA with APA.
The MOU was written to be neutral on the Nicolau Award. The process leading to the Nicolau Award was dictated by a separate section of the prior Bankruptcy Court-ordered Transition Agreement and was not subject to independent ratification apart from the other 29 sections of a new contract. Ratification of an entirely new contract, replacing both existing East and West contracts, took place in the form of the MOU passage.
The ratification vote of the MOU eviscerates USAPA’s primary argument for a Legitimate Union Purpose, as USAPA has always maintained that the Nicolau Award itself created an impasse to obtaining a joint contract:
“In effect, USAPA claims that the East Pilots hold such strong objections to the Nicolau Award that they always will vote as a bloc against any new CBA with it, enjoying the self-denial of a single CBA with improved wages and working conditions into perpetuity. Even if this unbelievable story is believed, it only means that the East Pilots have the power of self-inflicted harm. It does not mean that the union’s duty of fair representation falls victim to self-hostagetaking.
Whether considered as a matter of fact or law, the asserted impasse does not absolve USAPA from liability.” [Judge Wake, Doc. 593 pg. 29]
For years, our position has been that the "impasse" referred to by USAPA was one of its own making. Judge Wake agreed with us and referred to it in his "Statement of Facts" (doc 593) as "self-hostagetaking" and calling USAPA's claim that the East would vote "against any new CBA..... with improved wages and working conditions into perpetuity" an "unbelievable story".
The MOU vote has proven us (and Judge Wake) right: Given enough money there never was an impasse. However, pretending there was an impasse gave both USAPA and US Airways what they wanted. USAPA kept separate operations and avoided the Nicolau and management used the whipsaw to keep our wages the lowest in the industry (even lower with every hour of flying management could transfer East)!
On Monday, February 18, 2013, the attorneys for the West Pilots took the first step, post-merger announcement, by placing all parties on notice that we are prepared to take appropriate legal action to protect our right to the Nicolau Award. You may read the letter here.
Much damage has been done to US Airways pilots through USAPA’s refusal to negotiate a JCBA with improved pay and benefits prior to a merger with American Airlines. So much so that East pilots will enjoy breathtaking raises and benefit improvements by overwhelmingly ratifying the contract of a bankrupt carrier after it failed to achieve anything (except delay) while “representing” pilots at one of the industry's most profitable airlines over the last five years.
A unified front is required to secure the best possible future for US Airways pilots at the New American Airlines, but the West pilots will not forfeit our seniority rights to create that facade. Instead, we will require USAPA, US Airways, the APA and the New American Airlines to honor the clear-cut obligations to which they succeeded, (or will succeed). This means nothing less than the implementation of the Nicolau Award as the single list for the US Airways side of the AA/US integration equation. Nothing less will suffice.
Sincerely,
Leonidas, LLC
Walmartgreeter
Veteran
- Mar 6, 2003
- 1,430
- 1,143
That's it? I feel like that guy that won the first Regis millionaire show over a decade ago..he knew the answer the second it was asked.This last gasp by Harper is embarrassing, especially the references to Wake. Really? Citing an event that the law sees as having never even happened?Coming up on 6 years of no NIC. Nothing has changed. A guy with 17 years of unbroken service will never go behind a new hire. That simple.Greeter
You have been online all night, then wait till a guy signs off for the night, then try to hammer him....weak dick, junior FO!
Just another example of how the West is out to screw the East pilots.....we have to watch our 6s 24/7......they are always wanting to screw us.
breeze
I agree, Greeter......this is about what I expected. I am not surprised that this is all they've got!
breeze
LOL...."Any of you west pilots...?" = Not even a Nice Try award there.
How about giving it a rest Colonel? The MoU was voted in despite your ego.
dariencc
Veteran
- Dec 4, 2006
- 1,284
- 1,912
dca319: Any of you west pilots willing to put up that letter that was sent to the APA from AoL?
Whew! Still sticking to the "east" pilot BS kid? It's gettin' downright sad to see. For your latest to be at all acceptable; we must necessarily assume that you're: 1) NOT just some west punk that's utterly desperate to bring up AOL's latest nonsense in some "clever" fashion, and 2) So astoundlingly stupid as to not even comprehend google or ANY form of web search, which quickly and easily finds linkage to that mighty little "army's" very own update lair. I'll relieve you of any future distress in that regard...even though I'd not be surprised at all if said link's already your internet home/startup page.
http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/
Oh gosh!....Here's another that immediately appeared when searching the phrase: army of leonidas letter to apa.
http://www.cactuspilot.com/
Whoulda' thunk!? Why heck...Only a true west pilot would be ever be able to access that!....Which certainly explains your strange need to ask if "Any of"...ahem..."you west pilots"/etc.
I can immediately only come up with four potentially defensive constructs you could offer. I've earnest doubts that you're smart enough to convincingly do so, with even so much as one.
All this would be comical, if I wasn't starting to honestly feel sorry for you.
Whew! Still sticking to the "east" pilot BS kid? It's gettin' downright sad to see. For your latest to be at all acceptable; we must necessarily assume that you're: 1) NOT just some west punk that's utterly desperate to bring up AOL's latest nonsense in some "clever" fashion, and 2) So astoundlingly stupid as to not even comprehend google or ANY form of web search, which quickly and easily finds linkage to that mighty little "army's" very own update lair. I'll relieve you of any future distress in that regard...even though I'd not be surprised at all if said link's already your internet home/startup page.
http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/
Oh gosh!....Here's another that immediately appeared when searching the phrase: army of leonidas letter to apa.
http://www.cactuspilot.com/
Whoulda' thunk!? Why heck...Only a true west pilot would be ever be able to access that!....Which certainly explains your strange need to ask if "Any of"...ahem..."you west pilots"/etc.
I can immediately only come up with four potentially defensive constructs you could offer. I've earnest doubts that you're smart enough to convincingly do so, with even so much as one.
All this would be comical, if I wasn't starting to honestly feel sorry for you.
dariencc
Veteran
- Dec 4, 2006
- 1,284
- 1,912
dca319: Any of you west pilots willing to put up that letter that was sent to the APA from AoL?
Whew! Still sticking to the "east" pilot BS kid? It's gettin' downright sad to see. For your latest to be at all acceptable; we must necessarily assume that you're: 1) NOT just some west punk that's utterly desperate to bring up AOL's latest nonsense in some "clever" fashion, and 2) So astoundlingly stupid as to not even comprehend google or ANY form of web search, which quickly and easily finds linkage to that mighty little "army's" very own update lair. I'll relieve you of any future distress in that regard...even though I'd not be surprised at all if said link's already your internet home/startup page.
http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/
Oh gosh!....Here's another that immediately appeared when searching the phrase: army of leonidas letter to apa.
http://www.cactuspilot.com/
Whoulda' thunk!? Why heck...Only a true west pilot would be ever be able to access that!....Which certainly explains your strange need to ask if "Any of"...ahem..."you west pilots"/etc.
I can immediately only come up with four potentially defensive constructs you could offer. I've earnest doubts that you're smart enough to convincingly do so, with even so much as one.
All this would be comical, if I wasn't starting to honestly feel sorry for you.
And worst of all, he's still bald.
Meep Meep
nycbusdriver
Veteran
When are you morons ever going to figure out that the contract that demands the NIC, i.e. the US/AW TA, is specifically superseded by the new TA. Any contract can be renegotiated at any time in any way through mutual agreement by the parties involved, and that is what is happening here. The US/AW TA has been renegotiated to die, along with your precious lottery ticket, at the moment the new TA is signed.
Of course, you can file a lawsuit. Big deal. Give it your best shot. Ho hum. Yawn.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
Well, since the worstholes are flying 20% of those traditionally east routes, PHX will bear the brunt of the flying cuts in CLT, if indeed there are any.
Enjoy
nevergiveup
Veteran
- Nov 30, 2010
- 2,125
- 2,148
Leo is slick and will have a steady income from the west for a long time.
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