Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvthe9]

You said Munn was behind the Recall.

The Recall ensured a vote on the MOU.

The MOU passing prevented you from holding the company hostage to your parity now demand.

Defeated by Munn, that gotta sting.

Hardly Danny boy but if you feel better about it ............ did you thank your CLT reps (the ones you wanted to recall) for getting you more money .....retrospective pay?

 

[Black Swan]

Finally wasted my time watching Kirby.

Did I miss the part where Kirby said he was going to shrink PHX or sell the west?


What did stand out was the complete kiss a$$ of Hummel. Don't know about you but when the company starts butt kissing the president of the union and the leadership because they made a hard decision something is up.

You east guys better rethink that MOU. If as Kirby said Hummel and the BPR made hard decisions in the context of seniority discussion. You might want to question what was so hard? If you believe the MOU kills the Nicolau and DOH is just around the corner what was the hard part for them to decide?

Could the hard part be that the MOU does not kill the Nicolau but in fact cements it? Why was usapa so hard over about not talking about seniority and the MOU? If DOH is a lock that should have been easy for usapa.

Maybe you better go back and listen to Kirby again this time without the bias. Next go read the Paul Jones letter and the court filings. Put all that together because what Kirby says in crew news is to manage expectations. what the company says in court and to the NMB that has weight.

Lots of American guys in the jumpseat lately. None wants arbitration, all want nothing Nicolau. They said they absolutely recognize the danger of arbitration. I would expect them to do a deal.

 

[luvthe9]

Hey Guys:

If anyone thinks we did not negotiate a BK pay scale, they need to think again!

United 12 year Captain 2013 A320-321 USair/AA Difference

$188.97 $167.68 $21.29 X 85 X 12= $21715.80

United 12 year Captain 2014 A320-321

$205.03 $181.09 $23.94 X 85 X 12= $24418.80

United 12 year Captain 2015 A320-321

$211.18 $186.53 $24.65 X 85 X 12= $25143.00

United 12 year Captain 2016 A320-321

$217.52 $214.76 $2.76 X 85 X 12= $2815.20


TOTAL HOURLY DIFFERENCE OVER (4) YEARS $74,092.60

DC 16% (Not including loss of at least 5% yrly interest) $11,854.81

NO PROFIT SHARING $????????????

TOTAL $85,947.41

Average United Retro Pay $43,000.00

GRAND TOTAL $128,947.41 ($32,236.85 per year less)


You don't even want to look at the Delta disparity. As the #1 Airline in size and revenue generating capability, it begs (2) questions, why are we being paid like #4 (Southwest makes more) and is Doug and the rest of Tempe (I mean DFW) compensation package going to reflect being paid like the #4 or #1?

 

[cleardirect]

Lots of American guys in the jumpseat lately. None wants arbitration, all want nothing Nicolau. They said they absolutely recognize the danger of arbitration. I would expect them to do a deal.

Would you expect them to accept DOH as the deal?

Would you except a deal that uses the Nicolau and the american list in a ratioed method?

You and they can want a deal all day long. the reality is neither side is going to agree with the other.

The danger with arbitration is if you are unwilling to find common ground or offer the arbitrator viable solutions. If you force him to make a decision even though it is fair you will not like it. That is the danger, holding a hard line position not just going to arbitration.

ALPA lost a big DFR with TWA because they did not allow arbitration and made a bad deal. I think at least the APA is smart enough to avoid that pit fall. usapa agreeing to a bad deal for the west would be a DFR and with the TWA case fresh it should be a slam dunk. Especially with all of the evidence from usapa stating that DOH is the only fair method for the east and west.

 

[Beancounter]

Lots of American guys in the jumpseat lately. None wants arbitration, all want nothing Nicolau. They said they absolutely recognize the danger of arbitration. I would expect them to do a deal.

As one east pilot already pointed out, people guard what they say on the jumpseat. I know some American pilots, well enough that they were at my wedding, and that's not the complete story. I think you're back at cherry picking again. Do they like the Nicolau? No, but they know it's the list, or at least going to be the blueprint for the east/west seniotity list. Do they want arbitration? Some yes, some no. The ones that say no however feel it is the best way to avoid litigation and hassle down the road. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't want you to get your hopes up too high for DOH and a 7 year fence (facing inward) around PHX. I remember the anger and disbelief after the last time that didn't happen. I'm hoping to move on no matter what happens. Hopefully we all can.

Bean

 

[exB717Flyer]

Lots of American guys in the jumpseat lately. None wants arbitration, all want nothing Nicolau. They said they absolutely recognize the danger of arbitration. I would expect them to do a deal.

You're right about them not wanting arbitration. They're used to dictating the seniority terms and benefitting themselves. Actually having a fair integration scares the heck out of them. Of course, USAPA is equally terrified of a fair integration for obvious reasons.

As far as expecting them to do a deal I can guaran-freaking-tee you it won't happen. Never before in airline history have two more self-entitled groups merged. Both sides expect to gain in seniority as a result of the merger but that can't happen. The APA knows it stands to do better in front of the arbitration panel so that's where they'll make their case.

 

[snapthis]

Would you expect them to accept DOH as the deal?

Would you except a deal that uses the Nicolau and the american list in a ratioed method?

You and they can want a deal all day long. the reality is neither side is going to agree with the other.

The danger with arbitration is if you are unwilling to find common ground or offer the arbitrator viable solutions. If you force him to make a decision even though it is fair you will not like it. That is the danger, holding a hard line position not just going to arbitration.

ALPA lost a big DFR with TWA because they did not allow arbitration and made a bad deal. I think at least the APA is smart enough to avoid that pit fall. usapa agreeing to a bad deal for the west would be a DFR and with the TWA case fresh it should be a slam dunk. Especially with all of the evidence from usapa stating that DOH is the only fair method for the east and west.

I'm hearing exactly the opposite from APA insiders who are not captives on a jumpseat. I've gone through my texts and emails. Here's a sample.

Quotes from email and texts:

Doh, Date Of Hire. I thought they were quoting Homer Simpson.

They are setting themselves up for another loss

Sent from my iPhone

they are not going to stop no matter what happens. They have shown that but everything else continues to move forward.


Your own Constitution and Bylaws at USAPA's require them to push forward a DOH position. Doesn't mean you (USAPA) will get it. And Leonides has a finger in the process.


The easties have dragged the whole industry down for years and cost themselves mucho dinero. They know it and so does everyone else.


Date of hire aint gonna happen since those guys are so old over there they would immediately be placed on all the wide-body international flying and we would all be stuck with the rest.


Ain't gonna happen.

Bottom line, the company and jumpseaters are giving them false hopes. It's fun watching them take the line.

They will be reeled in and thrown in the cooler sooner than later.

 

[Black Swan]

As one east pilot already pointed out, people guard what they say on the jumpseat. I know some American pilots, well enough that they were at my wedding, and that's not the complete story. I think you're back at cherry picking again. Do they like the Nicolau? No, but they know it's the list, or at least going to be the blueprint for the east/west seniotity list. Do they want arbitration? Some yes, some no. The ones that say no however feel it is the best way to avoid litigation and hassle down the road. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't want you to get your hopes up too high for DOH and a 7 year fence (facing inward) around PHX. I remember the anger and disbelief after the last time that didn't happen. I'm hoping to move on no matter what happens. Hopefully we all can.

Bean

I did not say DOH. Nor did they. They simply said they would rather internally work a deal rather than arbitrate. They knew all about Nicolau, and TWA was a consideration as well.
You introduced the rest of it. Snapper dropped in a whole other spin.

 

[A320 Driver]

Hey Guys:

If anyone thinks we did not negotiate a BK pay scale, they need to think again!

United 12 year Captain 2013 A320-321 USair/AA Difference

$188.97 $167.68 $21.29 X 85 X 12= $21715.80

United 12 year Captain 2014 A320-321

$205.03 $181.09 $23.94 X 85 X 12= $24418.80

United 12 year Captain 2015 A320-321

$211.18 $186.53 $24.65 X 85 X 12= $25143.00

United 12 year Captain 2016 A320-321

$217.52 $214.76 $2.76 X 85 X 12= $2815.20


TOTAL HOURLY DIFFERENCE OVER (4) YEARS $74,092.60

DC 16% (Not including loss of at least 5% yrly interest) $11,854.81

NO PROFIT SHARING $????????????

TOTAL $85,947.41

Average United Retro Pay $43,000.00

GRAND TOTAL $128,947.41 ($32,236.85 per year less)


You don't even want to look at the Delta disparity. As the #1 Airline in size and revenue generating capability, it begs (2) questions, why are we being paid like #4 (Southwest makes more) and is Doug and the rest of Tempe (I mean DFW) compensation package going to reflect being paid like the #4 or #1?

Spreading more joy around I see. From the get go this MOU has been and continues to be a bridge to a joint contract. Why is it you are so intent on sowing discord when we have enough of that already?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Spreading more joy around I see. From the get go this MOU has been and continues to be a bridge to a joint contract. Why is it you are so intent on sowing discord when we have enough of that already?

The point made is the MOU/MTA/JCBA(AMR greenbook) in in fact just what he published. I don't know if its a BK contract like LOA 93, but it is substantially less thn United and Delta.

Just food for thought.

 

[cleardirect]

I did not say DOH. Nor did they. They simply said they would rather internally work a deal rather than arbitrate. They knew all about Nicolau, and TWA was a consideration as well.
You introduced the rest of it. Snapper dropped in a whole other spin.

Do you think usapa would or could agree to anything other than DOH? If not how will a negotiated deal get done?

Do you think that usapa would very agree to having a 5-10 years difference in DOH between american and an east pilots? How can a negotiated seniority list get done? You easties have kicked and raged against large DOH differences as being morally repulsive. Or was that just against west pilots but other airlines are OK?

usapa has proven unable to negotiate anything. No matter how bad you think arbitration might be, usapa has proven time and again that they are to stupid and hard headed to learn the lesson.

It will be arbitration. Accept the fact now. Let's not waste anymore time.

 

[Beancounter]

I did not say DOH. Nor did they. They simply said they would rather internally work a deal rather than arbitrate. They knew all about Nicolau, and TWA was a consideration as well.
You introduced the rest of it. Snapper dropped in a whole other spin.

If you're not part of the DOH (stapler) crowd, then I apologize and you can ignore those two sentences. The rest however still holds true.

Bean

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Hey Guys:

If anyone thinks we did not negotiate a BK pay scale, they need to think again!


You don't even want to look at the Delta disparity. As the #1 Airline in size and revenue generating capability, it begs (2) questions, why are we being paid like #4 (Southwest makes more) and is Doug and the rest of Tempe (I mean DFW) compensation package going to reflect being paid like the #4 or #1?

I would suggest you simply stop looking at what a Delta pilot makes, and start remembering what you made just a few short months ago.

Greeter

 

[luvthe9]

I would suggest you simply stop looking at what a Delta pilot makes, and start remembering what you made just a few short months ago.

Greeter

Yea your right, we don't even deserve the very little we got now, the other pilots groups are much better than we are so they deserve more, you really need to grow a pair.

 

[luvthe9]

Spreading more joy around I see. From the get go this MOU has been and continues to be a bridge to a joint contract. Why is it you are so intent on sowing discord when we have enough of that already?

Your so called "bridge" is going to be a very very long one, do not expect any pay increase at all, you signed it you live with it. We blew our chance big time on this MOU, gave up C of C and scope for nothing in return. still the lowest paid and guys are happy about that, I don't get it.