Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

"Would it be possible that" in exercising the utter brilliance of their strategy (which has worked so well for you) that "the west leadership" simply proved themselves greed-soaked, selfish jackazzes, instead of accomplishing anything?

If this were marriage counceling, this would be the beginning of a new and beautiful relationship... Honest and reciprocal communication!

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Your an an idiot.
Not one of us has the slightest control over the fate of our corporate employer.
The 17 year guy that has never been furloughed has no idea a merger is coming down the road.
Was he looking or sending out resumes. Probably - I know I was at the time.
But at 17 years, even with the paycuts and pension loss and all of that, US still paid him enough that it'd be another 50% paycut to go and start over somewhere else. Which of us could?
So, once again: Your a bigger idiot for denigrating a fellow airman in a difficult situation and desiring to make his fate worse and yours better by taking away the only thing of value the east pilot group had and has: attrition.
The old advice is the best: don't judge a man until you've walked in his shoes.
Sheesh.

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Take a look at Cactus Dave, hired in September of 2000. I believe he is already in his mid-fifties, basically my age. I am not sure if he has ever been furloughed. [/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']What if 4 years from now (due to a terror attack) the New American hits a rocky road, has to downsize, loses money. Maybe even hits the BK court. And after all that, it is time for what is left of a couple of the mega carriers to once again merge. But the new AMR went BK first, and the other carrier's pilots, though still working for a failing carrier (also, due to the terror attack) are able to get Dave (now over age 60 with 17 years service) behind one of their new hires on the seniority list.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Would Cactus Dave do what we have been doing? Or would he simply tell his family "suck it up?” [/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Actually, due to his extreme integrity, I am sure he would stick it to his family. It would be the only right thing to do. That is actually what he expects of us.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Greeter[/font][/font]

 

[end_of_alpa]

This would make me nervous if I had promoted violence as a "legitimate union purpose"

https://tips.fbi.gov/

This should apply to all organizations, including AOL.

"Freedom from Union Violence Act

111th Congress

The Freedom from Union Violence Act closes a loophole in the federal Hobbs Anti-Extortion Act, eliminating the special judicially-created exemption in this law for union-related violence and extortion and holding union officials to the same legal standards as other Americans.This legislation would establish that the 1946 Hobbs Act applies to all Americans, including union officials seeking to advance so-called “legitimate union objectives.” Present law offers this unique exemption for union officials.
NILRR union violence investigations have determined that union violence is responsible for at least 203 Americans deaths since 1975; 5,869 incidents of personal injury; and more than 6,435 incidents of vandalism and tens of millions of dollars in property damage.
Congress need not extend federal jurisdiction over law enforcement to crack down on union violence. All Congress need do is ensure the 53-year-old Hobbs Act is evenhandedly applied so that union officials cannot get away with crimes for which other Americans are rightly punished.
The Freedom from Union Violence Act would accomplish this task by clarifying the Hobbs Act, making it plain that union officials must be held accountable under this law for the violence they foment."

 

[cactusboy53]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Take a look at Cactus Dave, hired in September of 2000. I believe he is already in his mid-fifties, basically my age. I am not sure if he has ever been furloughed. [/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']What if 4 years from now (due to a terror attack) the New American hits a rocky road, has to downsize, loses money. Maybe even hits the BK court. And after all that, it is time for what is left of a couple of the mega carriers to once again merge. But the new AMR went BK first, and the other carrier's pilots, though still working for a failing carrier (also, due to the terror attack) are able to get Dave (now over age 60 with 17 years service) behind one of their new hires on the seniority list.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Would Cactus Dave do what we have been doing? Or would he simply tell his family "suck it up?” [/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Actually, due to his extreme integrity, I am sure he would stick it to his family. It would be the only right thing to do. That is actually what he expects of us.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Greeter[/font][/font]

I guess I’ll jump off that bridge when I come to it Greeter. What we are dealing with now is two events:

• The completed merger between America West Airlines and the former US Air, creating the New US Airways.
• The pending merger between the New US Airways and the soon to be New American Airlines.

The former event is complete. The only work group that is not joined is the pilot group, and the only reason for that is the AA MEC ordering the JNC to back away from the negotiating table AND the creation of USAPA for the sole purpose of evading the Nicolau Seniority List.

Whether I am 54, 44, 34 or 24 makes no difference. Whether I’ve been at AWA for 13 years, 23 years or 33 years makes no difference. The merger process was followed perfectly. All three parties (US Air, AWA and AWA holdings) signed on the dotted line to abide by the results. Prater delivered the list. Parker accepted the list. LCC paid the two ALPA properties for the merged seniority event. More to the point: Your perception of fairness of the Nicolau is not our concern.

Try as you might the company stance is not going to be DOH. Further, the company will ultimately do whatever it takes to stay out of legal jeopardy.

The second event will not take place until there is a resolution to the first event (APA Update). The Nicolau List is the final product of an agreed upon process. It is the middle ground. It is the final legal resolution (IMHO).

We (West Class) will continue to fight. We will not back down. We are funded (even though we are required to help you fund your paper DOH paper chase) & determined to make you keep your word. Mikey & Randy told you already: “No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts..” (US Airwaves June/July 2000). Your actions (both direct & indirect) have cost us all dearly.

DOH is NOT THE GOLD STANDARD. In fact it hasn’t been used for decades.

 

[A320 Driver]

I guess I’ll jump off that bridge when I come to it Greeter. What we are dealing with now is two events:

• The completed merger between America West Airlines and the former US Air, creating the New US Airways.
• The pending merger between the New US Airways and the soon to be New American Airlines.

The former event is complete.

Not sure how you can make that claim except it suits your purposes. With no operational integration, I'm not sure how, by any stretch of the imagination, you would call the merger complete. And, it doesn't appear there is anything humble about your opinion. (IMHO).

 

[Walmartgreeter]

I guess I’ll jump off that bridge when I come to it Greeter. The former event is complete. The only work group that is not joined is the pilot group, and the only reason for that is the AA MEC ordering the JNC to back away from the negotiating table AND the creation of USAPA for the sole purpose of evading the Nicolau Seniority List.

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']I guess that means you will "deal with it" when it affects you. [/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']The process (LOA 96) was started. But never completed with a JCBA (that included section 22) and vote by the pilots. The U/AWA merger was announced 8 years ago this May. Not looking good for the failed ALPA process. But stomp your feet and fantasize that it was completed. Won’t make it so.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']You are conveniently confusing the MOU vote with a JCBA a vote, but (like you always say) a court will (once again) have to teach Marty what ripeness means. His lesson is an expensive one, and I am glad you have lots of moneys. You at least should pay your help.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Where is the Company’s posting of the new combined seniority list? Why were you left out of our last bid? Why are you not flying the 190's now?[/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']You know the answers Dave. Why not quit the act and let the rest of your PHX pilots know the answer.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']I wish you nothing but success in tying up the merger of US Airways and APA pilots. Can you please drag this out another 8 years? That would work out just perfect for me.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Greeter[/font][/font]

 

[snapthis]

I guess I’ll jump off that bridge when I come to it Greeter. What we are dealing with now is two events:

• The completed merger between America West Airlines and the former US Air, creating the New US Airways.
• The pending merger between the New US Airways and the soon to be New American Airlines.

The former event is complete. The only work group that is not joined is the pilot group, and the only reason for that is the AA MEC ordering the JNC to back away from the negotiating table AND the creation of USAPA for the sole purpose of evading the Nicolau Seniority List.

Whether I am 54, 44, 34 or 24 makes no difference. Whether I’ve been at AWA for 13 years, 23 years or 33 years makes no difference. The merger process was followed perfectly. All three parties (US Air, AWA and AWA holdings) signed on the dotted line to abide by the results. Prater delivered the list. Parker accepted the list. LCC paid the two ALPA properties for the merged seniority event. More to the point: Your perception of fairness of the Nicolau is not our concern.

Try as you might the company stance is not going to be DOH. Further, the company will ultimately do whatever it takes to stay out of legal jeopardy.

The second event will not take place until there is a resolution to the first event (APA Update). The Nicolau List is the final product of an agreed upon process. It is the middle ground. It is the final legal resolution (IMHO).

We (West Class) will continue to fight. We will not back down. We are funded (even though we are required to help you fund your paper DOH paper chase) & determined to make you keep your word. Mikey & Randy told you already: “No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts..” (US Airwaves June/July 2000). Your actions (both direct & indirect) have cost us all dearly.

DOH is NOT THE GOLD STANDARD. In fact it hasn’t been used for decades.

DOH is just as irrelivant as DOB on a jumpseat form.

 

[cleardirect]

Maybe so, but I was so personally put out by the way NIC characterized us as a group and as an airline that nothing he said after that had any credibility. I've put up with a lot of $**t since 1989, and that for me was the last straw. I hate the fact that it put us at odds with many West pilots, but their leadership was no friend of ours with regards to parity or anything else for that matter. I talked to several after NIC came out that were perfectly happy with the idea of fences for a time just to bring peace, but the change to the age 60 rule nixed that. It's time for this to be over and IMO, it must happen through a new arbitration process. The legal process can go on and on for years to come. It will be expensive and when it's finally done, most of those who were affected will be retired. Arbitration under M/B is a cleaner, quicker and less expensive option and there is no doubt that once it's done, it's done. There is no way to negotiate our way out of this and stop the litigation.

Are you kidding me. Can you not see the complete irony in your statement?

We did arbitration.

Arbitration was supposed to avoid years of expensive litigation. It was you the east pilots that threw that out in favor of forcing your own version of seniority on the minority. Now you think a NEW arbitration process with fix the problem you created and be fair.

I can only shake my head at the absolute stupidity of your thought process. Do you not see how foolish that is?

Arbitration under M/B is a cleaner, quicker and less expensive option and there is no doubt that once it's done, it's done.

Do you know what the APA said about M/B?

As both pilot groups were represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, they were governed by ALPA’s Merger Policy, which
is very similar to the McCaskill-Bond law in at least two respects. The ALPA Merger Policy called for the “fair and equitable” integration of seniority lists based on career expectations, longevity, status and category, but in no particular order and with no particular
weight. The policy also required that if both parties were unable to reach an agreement on a single, integrated seniority
list, the matter would be submitted to binding arbitration.

M/B is an arbitration. It costs the same, takes the same amount of time and uses the same arbitration protocols as ALPA merger policy. You can't be that ignorant to think otherwise.

The only difference at the end is if one party does not like the results and tries to pull a usapa is the government handles the case instead of the side following the rules and living up to their bargain. But so far east pilots have been the only ones who think they are special and somehow rules don't apply to you. The only ones who have tied to ignore the results of final and binding arbitration.

But there is a way to stop the litigation. A very simple way. The east pilots live up to the results of final and binding arbitration. The same process that you want now and accept the Nicolau list. No more litigation. No more split group. No more expense. Then we can concentrate on the american merger as a single pilot group. Instead of usapa trying to fight a two front battle.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I guess I’ll jump off that bridge when I come to it Greeter. What we are dealing with now is two events:

• The completed merger between America West Airlines and the former US Air, creating the New US Airways.
• The pending merger between the New US Airways and the soon to be New American Airlines.

The former event is complete. The only work group that is not joined is the pilot group, and the only reason for that is the AA MEC ordering the JNC to back away from the negotiating table AND the creation of USAPA for the sole purpose of evading the Nicolau Seniority List.

Whether I am 54, 44, 34 or 24 makes no difference. Whether I’ve been at AWA for 13 years, 23 years or 33 years makes no difference. The merger process was followed perfectly. All three parties (US Air, AWA and AWA holdings) signed on the dotted line to abide by the results. Prater delivered the list. Parker accepted the list. LCC paid the two ALPA properties for the merged seniority event. More to the point: Your perception of fairness of the Nicolau is not our concern.

Try as you might the company stance is not going to be DOH. Further, the company will ultimately do whatever it takes to stay out of legal jeopardy.

The second event will not take place until there is a resolution to the first event (APA Update). The Nicolau List is the final product of an agreed upon process. It is the middle ground. It is the final legal resolution (IMHO).

We (West Class) will continue to fight. We will not back down. We are funded (even though we are required to help you fund your paper DOH paper chase) & determined to make you keep your word. Mikey & Randy told you already: “No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts..” (US Airwaves June/July 2000). Your actions (both direct & indirect) have cost us all dearly.

DOH is NOT THE GOLD STANDARD. In fact it hasn’t been used for decades.

The shame here is that there is NO "Standard Operating Procedure or Practice" or even more to the point is there is NO legitimate union practice that any labor organization can sink its teeth into.

Dave and AOL hate USAPA, Dave and the other two PHX BPR reps solely for the purpose of AOL. Talk about conflict of interest.

This sore of pilot conflict is going to take away just about all pilot authority and labor unity is out the door. In fact, safety concerns should mandate that labor unions for pilots are illegal, and further all pilots who have an ATP, type rating and first class medicals should all be paid the same. Furloughs should be based on the pilots who make the most money being the first out the door.

That's what AOL and Dave is all about.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Are you kidding me. Can you not see the complete irony in your statement?

We did arbitration.

Arbitration was supposed to avoid years of expensive litigation. It was you the east pilots that threw that out in favor of forcing your own version of seniority on the minority. Now you think a NEW arbitration process with fix the problem you created and be fair.

I can only shake my head at the absolute stupidity of your thought process. Do you not see how foolish that is?




Do you know what the APA said about M/B?



M/B is an arbitration. It costs the same, takes the same amount of time and uses the same arbitration protocols as ALPA merger policy. You can't be that ignorant to think otherwise.

The only difference at the end is if one party does not like the results and tries to pull a usapa is the government handles the case instead of the side following the rules and living up to their bargain. But so far east pilots have been the only ones who think they are special and somehow rules don't apply to you. The only ones who have tied to ignore the results of final and binding arbitration.

But there is a way to stop the litigation. A very simple way. The east pilots live up to the results of final and binding arbitration. The same process that you want now and accept the Nicolau list. No more litigation. No more split group. No more expense. Then we can concentrate on the american merger as a single pilot group. Instead of usapa trying to fight a two front battle.

No. SYIC.

 

[cleardirect]

Your an an idiot.
Not one of us has the slightest control over the fate of our corporate employer.
The 17 year guy that has never been furloughed has no idea a merger is coming down the road.
Was he looking or sending out resumes. Probably - I know I was at the time.
But at 17 years, even with the paycuts and pension loss and all of that, US still paid him enough that it'd be another 50% paycut to go and start over somewhere else. Which of us could?
So, once again: Your a bigger idiot for denigrating a fellow airman in a difficult situation and desiring to make his fate worse and yours better by taking away the only thing of value the east pilot group had and has: attrition.
The old advice is the best: don't judge a man until you've walked in his shoes.
Sheesh.

Finally someone admitting to the actual situation prior to the merger.

The only thing of value the east had was attrition. Not a viable company, not a stellar career, nothing but hoping a guy senior to you would leave. Except without the merger US Airways was going to have 100% attrition.

Now if as you say attrition was the only thing of value I would think that the AAA MC would have done a little more to protect that "valuable" and agreed to fences or some sort of process. Instead the AAA MC being forced by the entire east piltos group demanded ALL of the seniority. With the only career expectation being attrition you all tried and failed to convince the arbitrator that US Airways had more value than just attrition. He did not buy it.

so today you admit that the only thing you had was attrition and yet today you are still trying to take more than you could have ever expected.

Read the Nicolau award. He addressed attrition. He also gave you 2 out of every three upgrades. He gave you what your airline was worth. You just overvalued it and when someone did not pay you what you thought it was worth you picked up your ball and went home.

BTW the west has not taken anything. The arbitrator created the list. It is the eat that has taken. Taken 8 years of all our lives. Cost all of us hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Let's hope you east pilots learned something this time around. A lot of you can not afford another huge mistake again.

 

[cleardirect]

Maybe so, but I was so personally put out by the way NIC characterized us as a group and as an airline that nothing he said after that had any credibility. I've put up with a lot of $**t since 1989, and that for me was the last straw. I hate the fact that it put us at odds with many West pilots, but their leadership was no friend of ours with regards to parity or anything else for that matter. I talked to several after NIC came out that were perfectly happy with the idea of fences for a time just to bring peace, but the change to the age 60 rule nixed that. It's time for this to be over and IMO, it must happen through a new arbitration process. The legal process can go on and on for years to come. It will be expensive and when it's finally done, most of those who were affected will be retired. Arbitration under M/B is a cleaner, quicker and less expensive option and there is no doubt that once it's done, it's done. There is no way to negotiate our way out of this and stop the litigation.

So sad. You are butt hurt that someone came along and pointed out that your career sucked and you worked for a lousy airline.

How do you feel now that the industry sees you as a group that refuses to keep your word and proven to be the poorest excuse for a union in the business?

What put you at odds with the west was you refusing to accept the ruling and trying to force your own seniority list on the minority not the Nicolau list.

As far as the parity goes. The west did support parity right up to the time when the east picked up your ball and left. Refusing to negotiate for a JCBA and demanding separate ops. You wanted the money without a contract so we would never merge. The east wanted a pay raise and the west to get nothing.

But once usapa happened now 5 years later the west is no more. usap (east pilots) are in charge. Why has usapa not gotten you parity? The west has no way to stop you from gettnig what you want. If you want to blame someone for not having parity blame the NAC, blame usapa.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

DOH is just as irrelivant as DOB on a jumpseat form.

[font=Arial']You continue to interject the DOH argument into the one about the NIC surviving. As of now, DOH still lives and the NIC is dead.[/font]

[font=Arial']DOH may or may not survive the current merger. Our arguments in the merger process will be made according to the CBL; which give us a wide range of reasonableness, despite your objections to the contrary. [/font]

[font=Arial']Greeter[/font]

 

[Phoenix]

Oh, save your time and money. Relative position, category and status at the POR, WB fences to the moon, all via MB arbitration, finished almost three years from now, courtesy of the new process we all voted for. Everything of the past will be washed away and irrelevant at the POR because we asked to have it that way. No one will have anything to worry about lawsuits and everyone will be upset about something.

Twenty years from now some West pilots will still be hanging onto the hope of suing the Nic into glorious resurrection, Marty will be retired and his son (now in grade school) will be the new owner of the law firm, and leading the charge (Its easy money, and a lifetime employment!). East pilots will be reclining on the shores of Lake Norman watching their great grandkids sailing the gentle waves. And the APA pilots will still wonder why no one understands they were the only real pilots in the New American anyway.


Now, go out and take a walk or go to the mall, etc.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Oh, save your time and money. Relative position, category and status at the POR, WB fences to the moon, all via MB arbitration, finished almost three years from now, courtesy of the new process we all voted for. Everything of the past will be washed away and irrelevant at the POR because we asked to have it that way. Now, go out and take a walk or go to the mall, etc.

Hope you are not suggesting the "walk" be AT the mall. Am I that old? Where did the years go!?

Greeter