Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[traderjake]

They put plenty of A320 Captains in front of A330 Captains...but that's OK too, huh.

Of course it's OK for people to bypass a position they can hold.

It's the number of positions in each Group that mattered, not the fact that people bypass upgrading causing Captain positions to go junior.

You may get a 3 way do over but IMO it's going to arbitration and will end up very close to the Nicolau award.

 

[Pi brat]

Was there supposed to be? I didn't know anything was going on today...

There was a crew news session in PHX today with Kirby and you know how the fireworks fly there. Parker is in CLT tomorrow. He gave Kirby the tough duty.

 

[Phoenix]

Of course it's OK for people to bypass..

 

[Phoenix]

...

Still waiting for Cactus Dave to publically ask the Company to publish a combined list, publish a system bid, and grant the West class their arbitrated 190 flying....

Are you sure he didn't do it today at the PHX crew news today?

 

[cactusboy53]

Still waiting for Cactus Dave to publically ask the Company to publish a combined list, publish a system bid, and grant the West class their arbitrated 190 flying. I know the answer, but understand his reluctance to ask the question.....

Greeter

Wow. What a Richard Cranium. I'll let the district courts speak for me (again).

CB

 

[Phoenix]

Are you sure he didn't do it today at the PHX crew news today?

Nope. Not a chance.

 

[nic4us]

As I have said, when it finally sinks in with the West Class they have actually voted away even the perception of NIC, look for the offers, ideas, suggestions, threats, and demands for some "process" going forward to "resolve" our issues. Having been away flying, I come back to pages and pages of West posters telling, asking, even demanding how they should be treated in a three way or two way. As predicted. NIC or nothing now is "nothing." Too late, the train has left.

The West Class will have their dates of hire, furlough time, etc. presented to APA, and maybe later an arbitrator. They will also have a complete fleet count of the PHX base presented, along with USAPA's best arguments for their career expectations. When the issue comes up as to widebodies, they simply have none, nor had any expectation or orders. That one will be easy for APA, USAPA, and maybe an arbitration to resolve.

Still waiting for Cactus Dave to publically ask the Company to publish a combined list, publish a system bid, and grant the West class their arbitrated 190 flying. I know the answer, but understand his reluctance to ask the question.

As to all the various sins of the NIC, and there were many, all the comman man needs to know is this:

You cannot put a new hire ahead of a 17 year pilot. Period. Not going to happen.

By the way, my favorite post of the weekend was Trader going over to one of the F/A threads and chastising them for going DOH.

Greeter

Hey Greeter, have you read the latest APA update?

Seems there is a disputed between the TWA pilots and the native American pilots, the APA , who has a DFR to represent both groups has decided the issue will go to arbitration and will pay EQUAL amounts to both sides for their presentations to the arbitration panel.


I think the scabs at usapa owe the West pilots a big ole boat load of money, and perhaps we will start by taking the $40 million from the merger.


Oh, another BTW. Read uscaba's complaint in the NY bankruptcy case again just to make sure of a couple of facts.

1. They sued the wrong people, and are going to pay a hefty price for that.

2. They filed too late....it seems the litigation filed by the West class was already in court.

 

[Metroyet]

As I have said, when it finally sinks in with the West Class they have actually voted away even the perception of NIC, look for the offers, ideas, suggestions, threats, and demands for some "process" going forward to "resolve" our issues. Having been away flying, I come back to pages and pages of West posters telling, asking, even demanding how they should be treated in a three way or two way. As predicted. NIC or nothing now is "nothing." Too late, the train has left.

The West Class will have their dates of hire, furlough time, etc. presented to APA, and maybe later an arbitrator. They will also have a complete fleet count of the PHX base presented, along with USAPA's best arguments for their career expectations. When the issue comes up as to widebodies, they simply have none, nor had any expectation or orders. That one will be easy for APA, USAPA, and maybe an arbitration to resolve.

Still waiting for Cactus Dave to publically ask the Company to publish a combined list, publish a system bid, and grant the West class their arbitrated 190 flying. I know the answer, but understand his reluctance to ask the question.

As to all the various sins of the NIC, and there were many, all the comman man needs to know is this:

You cannot put a new hire ahead of a 17 year pilot. Period. Not going to happen.

By the way, my favorite post of the weekend was Trader going over to one of the F/A threads and chastising them for going DOH.

Greeter

Calm down. You'll get to jump on that "unquestionably ripe, dangerous ground" soon enough. Your 17 year guy was an idiot for hanging on to such an obvious loser. Not the Wests' problem. Your reign of cowardly terror is coming to an end. No question. USCABA is dead meat. Everybody knows it. You idiots haven't accomplished a solitary thing with your USAPA experiment....unless one considers forever losing a ghastly amount of money and irreparably damaging your career something positive. This on top of a pathetic career....All for nothing.Bravo!!

 

[nic4us]

Forgot to say.

The West is not going to go looking for some process to resolve our issues.

Mutual solutions was an ALPA buzz term for give into the east. The West is going to stay the course and watch the scab union go bye bye and the Nic merged with the APA list.

 

[A320 Driver]

You may get a 3 way do over but IMO it's going to arbitration and will end up very close to the Nicolau award.

Maybe so, but I was so personally put out by the way NIC characterized us as a group and as an airline that nothing he said after that had any credibility. I've put up with a lot of $**t since 1989, and that for me was the last straw. I hate the fact that it put us at odds with many West pilots, but their leadership was no friend of ours with regards to parity or anything else for that matter. I talked to several after NIC came out that were perfectly happy with the idea of fences for a time just to bring peace, but the change to the age 60 rule nixed that. It's time for this to be over and IMO, it must happen through a new arbitration process. The legal process can go on and on for years to come. It will be expensive and when it's finally done, most of those who were affected will be retired. Arbitration under M/B is a cleaner, quicker and less expensive option and there is no doubt that once it's done, it's done. There is no way to negotiate our way out of this and stop the litigation.

 

[PullUp]

What does the MOU do for us? Ratified contract.

Arbitration takes one section of the contract. Section 22 and instead of negotiating that single section we all agreed to allow an arbitrator to decide what that would be.

Seniority between east and west has been completed.

The MOU completes a joint ratified agreement.

US Airways has a single operating certificate.

Those three items complete requirements.

Wrong again.
The MOU is a promissory note, not a contract. I don't see any changes in my workrules since 2/8, have you?
Also, the MOU is not an agreement between east and west and the company, it is an agreement between AA, creditors, LCC, and USAPA. In fact, it addresses seniority lists at LCC, specifically keeping them separate - not integrated.
The MOU does not complete a joint ratified agreement. Google it. MOUs are not contracts. Different animal. No 'consideration'.
The ONLY thing I agree with you on is that we have a single operating certificate.
So?
Once again the west is feigning injury when none exists; filing frivolous lawsuits with no cause; and using their one 'issue' (which is now dead and buried) to try to gain a seat at the new negotiations table.
AA and LCC should countersue AOL for frivolously filing a lawsuit to hold up a multibillion dollar merger.
The west needs to have a RO slapped on them for a change.
Oh, and have a great day.
Cheers.

 

[EastUS1]

I think the scabs at usapa owe the West pilots a big ole boat load of money, and perhaps we will start by taking the $40 million from the merger.

You forfeited any/all credibility at "I think..."

 

[PullUp]

Calm down. You'll get to jump on that "unquestionably ripe, dangerous ground" soon enough. Your 17 year guy was an idiot for hanging on to such an obvious loser. Not the Wests' problem.

Your an an idiot.
Not one of us has the slightest control over the fate of our corporate employer.
The 17 year guy that has never been furloughed has no idea a merger is coming down the road.
Was he looking or sending out resumes. Probably - I know I was at the time.
But at 17 years, even with the paycuts and pension loss and all of that, US still paid him enough that it'd be another 50% paycut to go and start over somewhere else. Which of us could?
So, once again: Your a bigger idiot for denigrating a fellow airman in a difficult situation and desiring to make his fate worse and yours better by taking away the only thing of value the east pilot group had and has: attrition.
The old advice is the best: don't judge a man until you've walked in his shoes.
Sheesh.

 

[Portly Dorman]

Would it be possible that the west leadership had an uneasy feeling the if they had pressed for and gotten parity the the easts inability to play by the rules would have started earlier? We did see the whole majority thing as a minus. At least with ALPA the east and west were supposed to be on even ground.

At this point it's all he said she said. The whole topic has been beaten and beaten and beaten. I'm waiting for the day the name changes to American and I can begin to forget this entire night mare. We did have a chance to make this into something great, but I digress. A different path was chosen and the whole mess needs to go away.

We can continue to live in the past or actually try to move forward. Let the courts decide, if the right court can be found and actually abide by the decision of said court.

I think arbitrations are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.

Maybe so, but I was so personally put out by the way NIC characterized us as a group and as an airline that nothing he said after that had any credibility. I've put up with a lot of $**t since 1989, and that for me was the last straw. I hate the fact that it put us at odds with many West pilots, but their leadership was no friend of ours with regards to parity or anything else for that matter. I talked to several after NIC came out that were perfectly happy with the idea of fences for a time just to bring peace, but the change to the age 60 rule nixed that. It's time for this to be over and IMO, it must happen through a new arbitration process. The legal process can go on and on for years to come. It will be expensive and when it's finally done, most of those who were affected will be retired. Arbitration under M/B is a cleaner, quicker and less expensive option and there is no doubt that once it's done, it's done. There is no way to negotiate our way out of this and stop the litigation.

 

[EastUS1]

Would it be possible that the west leadership had an uneasy feeling the if they had pressed for and gotten parity the the easts inability to play by the rules would have started earlier?

"Would it be possible that" in exercising the utter brilliance of their strategy (which has worked so well for you) that "the west leadership" simply proved themselves greed-soaked, selfish jackazzes, instead of accomplishing anything?