Freighterguynow
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- Jan 5, 2004
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junior East Skipper late 1999. Third listers about 300 (8 months) from upgrade.
Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion
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luvthe9
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- Aug 30, 2002
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You wouldn't have to there are only TWO lists that need to go together.
traderjake
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- Aug 30, 2002
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Desperation can be measured by the average number of smiley faces a poster uses.
traderjake
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- Aug 30, 2002
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If there are only two lists used one of them is going to be the Nicolau Award.
PullUp
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- May 22, 2010
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We have a MOU, but right now its just paper and a promise. Just like the Nic, not implemented. It needs a condition to activate it: the approval of the judge. I don't know about you, but my paycheck or working conditions have not changed -- yet. Feb 8th was just another day, ho hum.
Once we are on the green book, nothing changes until the lists are integrated (didn't you go to the roadshows?). When the SLI is done, then you may bid around the system according to the C&R's associated with the new list.
I think you're jumping the gun here, mister. Today, nothing is different than it was last year, or the year before. We have a promissory note that takes effect if this merger gets approved. It may not. DP's track record so far has been to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, so 'ya never know.
Cheers.
PullUp
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- May 22, 2010
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Step back a moment and think about whether a negotiated settlement or an arbitrated settlement would be better for you?
My opinion is a negotiated settlement would be desired by AA's pilots and the east, but the westies will sue unless it is an ironclad arbitration.
So, it'll probably go to the arbitrator. Will the westies ultimately get a better deal that way. Probably not. Will it shut them up finally?
Yep.
BTW, the arb gets big bucks to figure it all out and his decision will be final since it is a federal arb.
Cheers.
PullUp
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- May 22, 2010
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Just a thought on integrating three lists...what you have as of the POR (effective date) will be your bargaining chip. I don't know what criteria will ultimately be used for the integration, but whatever it is will be based on current data, not stuff from 2005.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Metroyet
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- Nov 1, 2008
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If the APA really doesn't want to inherit this mess as they've indicated, They only have one choice. If they entertain a 3 way seniority protocol they will most certainly be sued at the earliest opportunity. Everybody but the East pilots knows there is only one legal path forward...using the NIc.
cleardirect
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- May 24, 2008
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OK. Fence each base.
CLT is a base. Fenced.
PHL is a base. Fenced.
DCA is a base. Fenced.
PHX is base. Fenced.
Is that what you are talking about? Whatever base you are right now is the base you will retire from.
We are all US airways pilots how in any way do you think that is fair or acceptable to the company or any pilot?
cleardirect
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cleardirect
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OK, I will play.
As the usapa negotiator answer the question I aksed earlier how you would negotiate three lists. How would you place the three number one pilots on the three lists? How would you place the three junior captains on a combined list.
What do you consider the bottom of the east list. Varini premerger or the new hire. What list should the west pilots flying east be on and where should they be in relation to the thrid listers?
What do you consider the bottom of the APA list? Active pilots? Furloughed pilots? A/E flow through pilots?
Make your argument for negotiating a combined list. Keep in mind that it has to be fair for ALL US Airways pilots and it has to be acceptable to the APA pilots.
Make your case.
cleardirect
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- May 24, 2008
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Will usapa argue that the three lists should be put together having the three number one pilots next to each other?
APA DOH 3/73
West DOH 6/83
East DOH 1/73
Junior captain
APA 1/1993
West 7/1998
East 11/1987
Junior on the list.
APA Active 6/2001
West 2/2005
East 8/2004 or 9/2011
That is the current data as of today. What do you do with it? How would you integrate three lists and make it fair to ALL US Airways pilots.
If you want to consider 190's as captain you have to reduce the number of east captains by 1/3 and give the west credit for 190 captains that we should have. That arbitration is also hanging out there.
snapthis
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- Dec 23, 2009
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Let's go back to 1998.
So, DOH is not the only integration methodology considered? Us Airways used George Nicolau as well.
How do you explain the hypocrisy? Randy Mowrey, anybody?
"The obvious outcome of this integration is therefore some kind of a slotted list."
Succeeding in Arbitration
Bob Kirch (PHL)
Randy Mowrey (PIT)
Dick Wallis (DCA)
Merger Committee
"In the past we have
talked about the two
date-of-hire positions
(Eastern date of hire and
Trump date of hire) and
how each brings
problems with it when
put before the
Arbitrator."
The Merger Committee has completed participating
in the opening week of arbitration hearings on the Shuttle seniority integration case, from October
12-15. The Arbitration Board is chaired by George Nicolau, with Captain Michael Lazarowicz
(NWA) and Captain Don Jacobs (TWA) participating as Neutral Pilots.
The Shuttle pilots presented Captain Les Robinson as their first witness and the Shuttle's former
Vice President for Human Resources, Ray Grebey, as their second witness. They attempted to
build a link between the Shuttle and Eastern Air Lines. They presented no particular surprises in
terms of our trial plan.
On Tuesday, October 13, the Shuttle pilots presented an airline economist, Robert Mann, who
attempted to link the Shuttle's financial difficulties to US Airʼs management. He also blamed the
US Airways pilots and their representatives for their problems on the theory that our Memorandum
of Understanding (MOU) unduly restricted the Shuttle's expansion opportunities. The following day,
we heard from Terry Hallcom, the former Chief Executive Officer and President of the Shuttle, who
reiterated Mr. Mann's complaints about Hallcomʼs inability to expand the Shuttle as a result of our
MOU and US Airways' management interference.
The Shuttle pilots also offered the testimony of a former Pan Am pilot, now at Delta, who
explained that Delta had treated them very well when they transferred employment there. The
Shuttle pilots' proposal was defended by Michael Tannen, a Ph.D. in statistics and econometrics.
We feel we anticipated the major points and evidence of the Shuttle pilots and dealt with them well
at the hearing through cross-examination.
The hearings resume with the presentation of our case-in-chief on Monday, January 11. Since
October 2, we have been advocating a proposed list that is based on the Shuttle pilots' 1991
seniority integration agreement with the Northwest pilots, but which closely follows a Trump Shuttle
date-of-hire methodology. Our adaptation of the Trump-NWA agreement begins by inserting their
junior Captain into our list immediately junior to our junior Captain, Sergio Fernandez, senority #
4081, DOH 8/17/87, and ratios them up, 1:4. The Shuttle First Officers start out junior to
F.X.Censullo, senority # 5030, DOH 9/5/89, and are ratioed up our list on a 1:5 basis. All Shuttle
pilots junior to their junior First Officer are placed at the bottom of the merged list, on the theory
that their B-727 Second Officer positions are not of any value to the merged airline or pilot group
beyond next year. The conditions and restrictions we are seeking are identical to those associated
with our mediation proposal, presented to the Arbitrator on September 17.
We have a sterling group of witnesses, both pilots and expert witnesses. We feel we are in a fine
position to assert the interests of the US Airways pilot group and secure a fair and equitable
merged list.
In the past we have talked about the two date-of-hire positions (Eastern date of hire and Trump
date of hire) and how each brings problems with it when put before the Arbitrator. Eastern date of
hire gives many of the Shuttle Captains instant wide-body international seniority while Trump date
of hire puts 4800 of our pilots above their most senior Captain. We spoke of a fairness test that any
integration outcome would have to pass. Either the integration would have to be perceived as fair
by both Merger Committees in negotiations or mediation, or be viewed as fair by the Arbitrator in
arbitration. Obviously neither Merger Committee was going to agree to the other's date-of-hire
position, and betting on an arbitrator awarding Trump date of hire was a long shot.
The obvious outcome of this integration is therefore some kind of a slotted list. We have many
good arguments for where the Shuttle pilots should be slotted on our list. It would be very hard to
appear sincere while arguing for Trump date of hire before the Arbitrator, but then saying that if
you don't agree, here is how you should slot the list. We could end up with the Shuttle pilots
appearing reasonable by coming off Eastern date of hire, and with us appearing to take a hard
stand at Trump date of hire and the only guidance for how the Arbitrator should slot the list coming
from the Shuttle pilots.
In our mediated talks with the Shuttle Merger Committee this spring, we proposed Trump date of
hire, and after the talks went nowhere, we discussed ratioing. Because the Shuttle pilots were still
wanting to be slotted in higher on our list than we felt was reasonable, the talks failed. We are now
committed to arbitration.
The Arbitrator who was selected to hear our case, Mr. Nicolau, decided to grant the Shuttle pilots
request for mediation, which is what ALPA Merger Policy contemplates. He scheduled September
17,1998 for mediation and a pre-hearing conference. He also scheduled October 2, 1998 as the
deadline for submitting final arbitration positions.
We decided to make one more attempt for Trump date of hire. This day of mediation would give us
a chance to see if Mr. Nicolau might look favorably on a Trump date of hire proposal. The Shuttle
pilots came in with a proposal using slotting rather than Eastern date of hire. We proposed Trump
date of hire with conditions and restrictions. Mr. Nicolau suggested, and the parties agreed, that
mediation would be pointless and that we should proceed directly with arbitration.
During the following two weeks leading up to the October 2 deadline, we set about determining our
final arbitration position. Date of hire is our heritage, but as discussed above, arguing for Trump
date of hire in this case has some serious potential for problems. The probable outcome of this
arbitration is a slotted list and we need to be in a position to make a strong case as to the fair and
equitable positions on our list into which the Shuttle pilots should be slotted. This cannot be done
effectively while arguing at the same time for a Trump date of hire integration.
The Shuttle pilots in their mediation/arbitration proposal and in the integration to which they agreed
with the Northwest pilots integrated their Captains with reference to the position of the junior
applicable Captain on the other list. In both cases they integrated their Captains with reference to
the actual position of the junior applicable Captain. Their mediation proposal was based on the
seniority number on our list that would assure holding a non-MetroJet Captain position. We feel
that MetroJet Captains are not inferior Captains and that the appropriate reference point on our list
from which to ratio up their Captains is the seniority number of our junior Captain including
MetroJet. This point is just over 4000 numbers down our list. By making the case that a MetroJet
Captain position is every bit equal to a Shuttle Captain position, we can show that the proper place
from which to ratio up their Captains is over 4000 numbers down our list.
In the same manner we integrated their First Officers. We take their junior First Officer and
integrate him one number junior to our junior working First Officer. We took the remainder of their
pilots and put them below our recently recalled furloughees, at the bottom of our list. As we have
numerous First Officers senior to our junior Captain, they have about 15 Second Officers senior to
their junior First Officer.
In summary, it is important for our pilots to know that we did not leave Trump Shuttle date of hire
without much serious deliberation and thought. It is the collective judgement of your Merger
Committee and our merger counsel that this evolution of our arbitration strategy provides us with
the best opportunity to come out of this process with a fair and equitable list.
The seniority arbitration will reconvene the week of January 11, 1999, at the Mayflower Hotel in
Washington D.C. At that time, we will put on the US Airways pilots case in chief. We encourage all
US Airways pilots and their families to attend.
Zone5
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- Dec 17, 2010
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I agree, it should not happen and will not happen. You know what else should not and will not happen?.......a seven month "new hire', still on probation, going ahead of a never furloughed 17 year F/O!
seajay
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
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Your funny, the end is near for you, just hope you kids don't stiff Marty!!!!!
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